Wiki talk:Rejected deletion policy/Pre-voting: Difference between revisions

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: I found a case in [[Special:ShortPages]] yesterday, but of course I did not request deletion because we still debate on the rules. I think it was somewhere around the 1000th shortest page. --[[User:Tigerfell|Tigerfell]] [[File:OSM logo wiki small2.png|text-bottom|16px|This user is member of the wiki team of OSM|link=Wiki#Wikiteam]] ([[User talk:Tigerfell|Let's talk]]) 18:32, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
: I found a case in [[Special:ShortPages]] yesterday, but of course I did not request deletion because we still debate on the rules. I think it was somewhere around the 1000th shortest page. --[[User:Tigerfell|Tigerfell]] [[File:OSM logo wiki small2.png|text-bottom|16px|This user is member of the wiki team of OSM|link=Wiki#Wikiteam]] ([[User talk:Tigerfell|Let's talk]]) 18:32, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
::There was a couple of cases I came across a while ago. I can't remember what they were now unfortunately. I'll try to find them again though. --[[User:Adamant1|Adamant1]] ([[User talk:Adamant1|talk]]) 04:21, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
::There was a couple of cases I came across a while ago. I can't remember what they were now unfortunately. I'll try to find them again though. --[[User:Adamant1|Adamant1]] ([[User talk:Adamant1|talk]]) 04:21, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

:::Proposed features/All Highway Tags, Proposed features/employment agency (which you edited, but probably didn't even read. Not surprising), Proposed features/Access only (has "examples" but nothing really explaining it), Proposed features/cape (has a link to Wikipedia for the definition. The conversation on the talk page is all about place=locality also), Proposed features/Cargo (kind of has a definition but not really. Blank otherwise. Could probably be deleted), Proposed features/Civic centre (no definition, could probably be deleted despite discussion as its mostly off topic), Proposed features/cluster (no definition), Proposed features/Crop (no definition, lots of talk on main page but not really clear what its about), Proposed features/Key:dafor (not really clear what it is and none sense comment about it), --[[User:Adamant1|Adamant1]] ([[User talk:Adamant1|talk]]) 07:49, 9 March 2019 (UTC)


== Deletion requests reverted ==
== Deletion requests reverted ==

Revision as of 07:49, 9 March 2019

criteria for deletions

4. Draft pages on request of the original author, that have not attracted discussion from other users except for relevance and deletion discussions. After a period of one year passing without significant content changes, other users might suggest deletion (using {{Delete proposal}}) and finally request deletion in case of no objections.
I propose to remove the exceptions ("except for relevance and deletion discussions"). --Dieterdreist (talk) 15:22, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

I commented at https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=737114#p737114, just in case you missed it. --Tigerfell This user is member of the wiki team of OSM (Let's talk) 21:48, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

"In case that a deletion is opposed"

We have discussed this in the forum previously and I think it will never work that way. Use of delete instead of delete proposal should not occur except when the page is clear spam? So this should be stressed in the beginning.

If someone uses delete instead of delete proposal and someone else objects the only clean solution is to revert and have the original delete requestant add the delete proposal.

Anything else has too much potential for confusion: say Alice adds "delete". Bob changes that into delete proposal. Alice sees that, changes her mind and thinks the pages should not be deleted after all so she removes the delete proposal or opposes it in the discussion page. Now figuring out the history is interesting .. and then flies by User:EzekielT, does something like this. RicoZ (talk) 22:14, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

There are several technical reasons to delete a page. I do not want to hinder myself. If you check my contributions you will find several of them (just search for "deletion request" in the edit summary, I always label them this way): duplicated files, copyright issues of files, licensing issues (I usually forward them to admins), empty pages, broken files, broken templates with no use (creator writes: "sorry it is broken and useless", I sometimes contacted the people individually), pages like "Please delete..." without the template, empty and wrong translations (e.g. English version equal to Japanese version, and no page history to keep), redirects to deleted pages, automatically created pages containing a template only (I see, you could discuss in this case), content not relating to OpenStreetMap in any way (like private images, Wikipedia-like pages about general concepts like "Publishers"), multiple identical pages (usually changed to redirects), and ... lastly spam.
I mainly think that EzekielT did not fully understand what they were doing and how the undo feature works, so it does not really relate to this problem specifically. I just wanted to stop this whole business of "undoing" because it is somewhat aggressive. I mean you basically say "this was wrong!" or "you made this page worse than it was before". But, ok I will give in. My approach is probably too confusing with regards to the page history. --Tigerfell This user is member of the wiki team of OSM (Let's talk) 12:03, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
-> Discussion moved to section delete template - should the page really be blanked?


I can see there's potential for things to get confused, but if you explain what you're doing in the wiki edit comment, doesn't that solve confusion to a large extent? I mean if you say something like "Downgrading User:xxx's deletion to a delete proposal while we discuss" ...it should be pretty clear that it's not you proposing the delete. Is that the main issue? (and yes I'd expect that edit to involve restoring the content).
Maybe you should add "with a clear edit comment" to your advice there Tigerfell.
Admittedly I haven't dealt with edit-warring with deletion templates very much. I saw there's been some animosity related to deleting archived proposals recently. I hope that calms down somehow (I'm trying to stay out of it to be honest)
-- Harry Wood (talk) 01:06, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
I would have also to copy the original arguments for deleting the page. Whether it would be confusing depends whether I would be able to do all this in a single atomic edit, something which I don't like too much.
Further problem, the instructions for the delete template says all links leading to the page should be removed but for a delete proposal we want to consider the original use of the page. Who is supposed to "repair" this? RicoZ (talk) 20:39, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
Yeah I wanted to set it up so that the community can do all of the discussion and get a page ready for full on deletion (including tidying incoming links) and then those with permissions have an easy time simply hitting delete. Of course if somebody jumps to this {{delete}} stage without adequate discussion/agreement, then that is always going to be a problem. If that includes deleting lots of incoming links then that's even worse.
I'm trying to think of a process change which would help here. If we could rely on admins to do delete the content and remove incoming links, then that makes for an easier process... but leaves much more work for admins to do, so not really viable.
We could tweak the naming slightly. If the template was called "delete final", then people would be more likely to understand that they should do "delete proposal" first. I'm not sure if that's solving a real problem though. Do people often jump to "delete" directly because they don't know about "delete proposal"?
We could introduce a 3rd template "delete pending", which would mean the delete proposal is regarded as settled and (while the content and links are still in place) the deletion is going to be carried out very soon. And then a rule: There should be no moving to "delete final" (and actual removal of content) without a 2 week "delete pending" period. ...but I can see this leading to more awkward process questions. e.g. replacing a page with a redirect, while kind of a less damaging move, is potentially a way of bypassing the rule.
-- Harry Wood (talk) 15:03, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
I think the original idea was good: what is marked as "delete" should be an easy decision and pretty much single button action for the admin to delete. I think this is easiest achieved *if* the "delete proposal" stage is never skipped except for outright spam which will have zero linking pages anyway. I realize that we have quite a few delete proposals pending for years or decades and hence some people may easily come to the conclusion that this procedure is ineffective. I think this needs better explantion and patience somehow along:
  1. don't hesitate to remind the community of cases that you think should be deleted
  2. if you don't get a quick reply than it may be because users are having a hard time to make up their mind - in that case give it time to ripe and try again in some months/years
  3. respect that a decision to delete is not an easy one, requires time and effort to check with very little gain if something is deleted "correctly" and a potentially big loss if something is deleted "wrongly"
  4. we should probably specify voting requirements similar to proposals, at least 7 votes and qualified majority agreement
We still have a slight window for disagreement regarding outright spam but in my experience this is handled very efficiently.. even though I have been trying to help the admins from time to time by checking new pages I found they were much quicker without my help. RicoZ (talk) 21:36, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
I basically agree, but I think the delay in deletions is caused by admins wanting to make sure that nothing gets deleted too fast and secondly too few people taking care of this. In addition, there are certainly difficult cases but it would be helpful to get a reply from the admins in the form of changing the template in case they deem the request premature. Two illustrative examples are Forking (which is not even a deletion request, but a request for undeletion pending since February 2014) and Kosmos bugs (deletion request along with several other pages about rendering software Kosmos, I could imagine a problem with this mass deletion, pending since June 2018).
This is turning towards a more general discussion about deleting, so maybe we want to communicate this discussion to others as well? --Tigerfell This user is member of the wiki team of OSM (Let's talk) 11:29, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
I think ideally it would be very easy for the admins if all of the requests went through a delete proposal stage.
As a side note I really like that some people give their signature in the delete request (like the Forking example) and think this should be encouraged in all templates asking for discussion.
We should ask others for opinion, perhaps this text should be handled like a normal proposal with mailing list announce, RFC etc? Before we do that I think it would be good to refine the text and settle as many points as possible. There is probably more things that could be generalized and merged, perhaps the "avoid reverts" could be made a more general recommendation rather than a specific rule when replacing templates. Regarding wiki style, I think I would convert most of the lists to plain bullet lists, except perhaps the "Howto delete" which is a real sequence?
Regarding the Kosmos pages I seem to recall several people expressed concern so in my opinion the delete requests should certainly be changed to delete proposals and discussed properly. RicoZ (talk) 21:48, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
Ok, I think we already noted the point "use deletion proposals first". Signing can be helpful, I agree. The sole purpose of numbering was the ability to refer to this numbers later on (like "I think this should not be deleted according to number 3 of 'When to delete'").
How about we improve and discuss this here for one more week and then we bring this up on the mailing list? --Tigerfell This user is member of the wiki team of OSM (Let's talk) 10:31, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
Regarding the numbering, it seems also quite useful to have numbering temporarily for the purpose of the discussion. But once there is no need for it I think unnumbered lists would be better and it would be also fairly easy to revert back to numbering should the need arise later.
As of the time schedule, before it is announced we should somehow collect all those little improvements we were discussing (signing in templates, blanking with delete request yes/no/optional) and present them in the draft as well. RicoZ (talk) 21:04, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
Ok, I added signing. Was there a result about blanking (I am neutral in this)? --Tigerfell This user is member of the wiki team of OSM (Let's talk) 22:16, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

General advice/#2

What does this mean or how is it relevant for the decision whether to delete something?

I would like to help getting this article into shape, should I fork it and work on my own copy or edit your copy? RicoZ (talk) 22:29, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

#2 intends to say that you should rather indicate that a proposal is inconsistent with current mapping styles than propose or discuss a deletion.
Please feel free to change the page or fork it, whatever you prefer. If you change this page, we can keep the history together and I currently do not intend to change the page, so there will be no conflicting edits or similar. Thanks, I appreciate it. --Tigerfell This user is member of the wiki team of OSM (Let's talk) 11:36, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
Before I start too boldly..do you envision the final result be one or two pages? Is it to replace the current Delete page? RicoZ (talk) 21:55, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
I actually thought of one page (like on the flip side, but without the insertion and deletion marks). I was thinking of a community guideline or rule, meaning you could end a deletion discussion by naming a section from this guideline. If I were to write an intro about this I would write:

This page reflects a consensus among the community. It was formulated to avoid edit conflicts with regards to deleting pages and to provide a fair decision making in this matter.

Delete rather documents what happened in the past, but of course it would be mostly obsolete then (except for documenting the use of the templates and defining the terms). It was set up by singular editors, but it is not based upon a consensus. I did not thought too much about it, because I wanted to adhere to the opinions on the mailing list. I acknowledged that there were some people rather opposing strict rules, but I think it is good to have a fixed baseline. --Tigerfell This user is member of the wiki team of OSM (Let's talk) 23:21, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
Ok, also think one page should be enough and in this case I would try to write it so that it can directly replace delete. I would reverse the page order, starting with the generic part (now other pages) and handling the proposals as a special case further down - hopefully this would remove plenty of duplication because most of what is valid for normal pages should be also valid for proposals which have only a few additional specific points. As of editing style, I consider the insertion/deletion marks rather confusing and of little use? RicoZ (talk) 21:44, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
Deletion and insertion marks were used to document the changes only (I copied System-users-3.svgPolarbear (on osm)'s initial draft here). That sounds good. --Tigerfell This user is member of the wiki team of OSM (Let's talk) 10:58, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

Reverting or not reverting

It has been mentioned several times that reverts are unfriendly and may have escalated the situation in this particular edit war. This is true - but it is also generally true that reverts are always likely to escalate any edit war. I recall many edit wars and many disagreements and a few users blocked but so far I don't think anybody suggested to disable reverts in our software which would be certainly possible.

In contrast, this is the first edit war regarding page deletes which I witness so imho "forbidding" reverts just because of this single unfortunate edit war is a little premature. It should be the rule that reverts should not be considered unfriendly with a friendly or neutral comment and I believe any kind of other edits can lead to escalation as well.

I also believe that this edit war would never have escalated if people were using delete proposal instead of the delete template, so that imho it is the use of the delete template that should be discouraged (or restricted to utterly clear cases) instead of reverts. However if someone does https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Proposed_features/agricultural_access&action=history than it is imho utterly clear that the use of the delete template was wrong in the first place.

Instead of forbidding reverts in this very special case I think we may have some work ahead with our wiki etiquette: Wikipedia has "assume good faith", slandering, intimidation, avoid getting personal, canvassing - all of which seem to have been violated in the course of the recent edit war. If we don't have this in our etiquette it should be added.. I could find a netiquette relating to the mailing list but nothing specific to the wiki. Also, canvassing is a little more difficult to define if there are so many communication channels available. RicoZ (talk) 22:40, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

Well, there is template {{Talk}} containing such rules and also a recent discussion on its talk page. I would suggest to discuss this there or at Talk:Wiki. --Tigerfell This user is member of the wiki team of OSM (Let's talk) 11:40, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

delete template - should the page really be blanked?

This was previously discussed in the section In case that a deletion is opposed" - moving to separate section as this might be of more general interest RicoZ (talk) 22:04, 2 March 2019 (UTC)


Your approach could be rescued if it could be agreed that when using delete the contents of the page should not be blanked because than it would be just a simple edit - adding a single word into the template instead of the unblanking and placing a new template required now. Do not know how realistic that is? RicoZ (talk) 21:48, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
AFAIK, the blanking idea comes from this change of the delete template by User icon 2.svgHarry Wood (on osm, edits, contrib, heatmap, chngset com.). I guess this is used to demonstrate to less advanced users what might happen to this page soon, so they do not miss the message...?
Please remember that we would need to change all translations of this template (we could delete them in the worst case, but I would rather contact the authors). I recently found out that the German version of {{Delete proposal}} was not identical to the English one, pretty bad! --Tigerfell This user is member of the wiki team of OSM (Let's talk) 22:53, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
I think the disadvantages of this approach outweigh the possible benefit. Not only the complication when changing to delete proposal, but also the page is no longer findable by search, everyone who wants to have a quick look whether it should be deleted has to do at least 2 clicks more, not possible to improve the content while discussion is ongoing.
I see the difficulty with changing many language versions but maybe if the blanking is made optional that would help immediately many cases and allow a soft transition. RicoZ (talk) 20:47, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
I tried to check, what translations of which template doc? I can see only a Greek translation and although my Greek is a little aged since Aristotle I think I could fix this little detail. Of the Delete translations only Polish has true translations and I could do that. Can't find the German version you mentioned at all? RicoZ (talk) 21:12, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
I was talking about the template text itself. I was specifically referring to this change of Template:Delete proposal. But the translations would need to be updated as well. Never mind, we always have this problem when changing something in this wiki. --Tigerfell This user is member of the wiki team of OSM (Let's talk) 11:37, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
Thanks.. completely missed the translations in the template code itself. Luckily it seems that it would be easy to remove the part saying that he page should be empty even without knowing the languages.. I do more or less understand 9 of them. At least in the beginning I would not explicitly state that it should not be blanked and just allow both variants. RicoZ (talk) 20:12, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

Hoax proposals not marked as such and not on a user sub page

Why is deleting hoax and joke proposals "still controversial"? --Tigerfell This user is member of the wiki team of OSM (Let's talk) 11:55, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

Not controversial.. we badly need some humor and not too little:) Granted, it should be be properly marked and not excessively much. So maybe we could agree on some formulation how to keep some humor without making the wiki a joke altogether? Consider the case of amenity=bikeshed. It was mentioned in the mailing list discussion (https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2019-February/042659.html) and got the clear vote "keep". Nevertheless the two deletist apologetics still tried to delete it, created a mess and broke every single netiquette rule that I know in the process.RicoZ (talk) 19:43, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
I was actually thinking about foot=gourmet. There was a corresponding page defining the tag as some restaurant with an exceptionally good cook. This was available in German and English, but only the German version had a small note hidden as standard text that it is a joke (in German). amenity=bikeshed is clearly marked as a joke, so I still do not get why this is controversial. --Tigerfell This user is member of the wiki team of OSM (Let's talk) 10:31, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
Ok.. perhaps we are of the same opinion but the text is a little ambiguous. I read "Hoaxes and jokes that are not a sub page of a user (= in the user's space) and not clearly marked as such" to require both conditions to be true. If you wanted to say either of the conditions needs to be true than I see no controversy.. just clarify the text. RicoZ (talk) 19:50, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
I intentionally required both to avoid any misunderstanding, but I guess one is sufficient: you can change the page add the other and then you can keep the page as long as you understand the hoax in the first case.
Ok, we can change the text. --Tigerfell This user is member of the wiki team of OSM (Let's talk) 20:22, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
"got the clear vote "keep". Nevertheless the two deletist apologetics still tried to delete it" I didn't touch it the second time around after people on the mailing list said to keep it. I actually haven't done anything to edit pages since this discussion started, except that one time I reverted you. So don't include me in that.Otherwise, your just going to piss me off and I might go back to what I was doing. I'm currently practicing restraint and not involving myself in this because it seems to be going well without me. Don't ruin by playing the blame game or pointing fingers again though.
As far as what's been said about the guideline proposal so far, I think its fairly balanced and pretty much meets the criteria I was going for originally. So good job all around. If one of you could do me a favor and message me on my page in a week when it goes to the mailing list or a vote I'd appreciate it. In the mean time, I'll try and stay out of the way as much as possible. Id like to vote on it though when the time comes. You should inform Ezekiel about it also. I also like suggestion above about coming up with some etiquette like Wikipedia has. For instance "assume edits are good faith" etc etc. I think it would be good to create them after this is all done.
Anyway, thanks to both of you for putting the time into and effort into this. P.S. I don't have a problem with hoax proposals per say, but it should be clear they are hoaxes and it would be cool if they had a separate category from the legitimate ones so they don't pollute the well and people don't waste their time clicking on proposals they think are legitimate but turn out not to be. Which is what happened to me with the bike shed proposal. --Adamant1 (talk) 08:34, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
@RicoZ: @Adamant1::
System-users-3.svgRicoZ (on osm, edits, contrib, heatmap, chngset com.): ”we badly need some humor and not too little:)” - you Comically Missed My Joke on your talk page, with Adamant1 saying “EzekielT, don't expect people around here to have a sense of humor or more often then not you'll be let down. I thought it was funny though.” - but now that humour qualifies as a means to keep the page... it’s very convenient for you ;).
System-users-3.svgRicoZ (on osm, edits, contrib, heatmap, chngset com.): ”Nevertheless the two deletist apologetics still tried to delete it, created a mess and broke every single netiquette rule that I know in the process.” - Adamant1 only deleted it once. Then I reverted Adamant1, and actually restored the bikeshed page (I brought it back, I undeleted it). So calling me a deletist here wouldn’t make sense... And I only reverted myself (redeleting the page) because Adamant1 complained about me restoring pages they deleted. I was subsequently reverted by System-users-3.svgSmz (on osm, edits, contrib, heatmap, chngset com.), who I reverted twice among three other self-reversions before one side of me decided to self-revert again, put back the page’s contents, and move the page to the original creator’s userspace, and thus resolve the dispute. So in the end I kept the page, so I don’t agree with the deletist label, just as I wouldn’t agree to be labelled a “keepist”. — EzekielT (talk) 08:08, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
EzekielT, please stay on topic! This is about the draft on the flip side! If you want to comment on what happened in the past, please use the appropriate talk pages (this also applies to the previous comment of Adamant1). If this continues, I will redact off-topic parts of this page. Sorry about this bitterness, but I would like to move on and not constantly talk about the personal disputes that happened between everyone in the wiki. -- Tigerfell This user is member of the wiki team of OSM (Let's talk) 09:16, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
I was replying to what RicoZ said about me in this section. — EzekielT (talk) 10:25, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
I should have made more clearly that this was referring to everyone (that was so logic to me: mentioning Adamant1 and thinking "and everyone else" in my head). --Tigerfell This user is member of the wiki team of OSM (Let's talk) 18:19, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
System-users-3.svgRicoZ (on osm, edits, contrib, heatmap, chngset com.), there's a difference between making a joke, versus having a joke page. "Joke pages" are a worthless waste of space and maintenance time, funny or not, and are akin to vandalism in my opinion. Like someone trying to pass off an "ironic tag" on the side of a building as "just being funny" so does the joke proposal creator try to pass off what is essentially a fake proposal "because humor." Fake in the fact that its not actually a proposal for anything, wont be voted on, and will never be added to the map. Say someone created a proposal with the intent to make a fake one that wasn't funny and just fake, would that be OK? If not, what does the fact that the later is a "joke" have to do with anything. Remember, one person's "harmless joke" is another ones broken neck from pushed down a hill and jokes are pretty retaliative. Which I thought we were trying to avoid.
User icon 2.svgTigerfell (on osm, edits, contrib, heatmap, chngset com.), although I agree that this should stay on topic, a better way to reach that end would be to tell the person who originally made the personal comment not to do it anymore. Not the people responding to it. Although its on both parties to be civil, the ownness is on the original poster for doing the first eye jabbing. By not calling them out for it, eyes will just continue being poked. Especially in cases where something so clearly wrong is said about someone. Where they have to chime in to correct the record. --Adamant1 (talk) 12:30, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
Btw, I take particular offense to "joke proposals" because they are essentially a childish, passive aggressive way to insult other peoples tagging practices. "Well, you think we have a tag for garages huh? I'll show you and create a proposal for a bike shed. Hahahahahah." To quote from the bikeshed proposal "Special care should be taken in determining the orientation of the bikeshed : so as to correctly identify the front of the bikeshed. Sometimes this can be done by taking point counts of discarded cigarette ends in locations around the bikeshed. A botantical quadrat square is useful for this purpose. When the bikeshed is symmetrical it may be necessary to show the orientation using one or more relations." I don't see anything funny about that. It just sound condescendingly pathetic to me and like its written by someone that's to feckless to accept that people map things differently then them. So they created a fake "joke proposal" to insult the person mapping things how they didn't like, instead of just saying it to their face. There shouldn't be pages on the wiki insulting peoples tagging practices. That's the kind of crap that turns people off from contributing to the wiki and OSM in general. Put yourself in the shoes of someone who doesn't have much experience mapping, wants to create a proposal for a new tag or is trying to find out how to map some random building, and finds that "proposal." How would you feel in that situation? If it were me id be like "screw these rude snobby people" and I'd go contribute to ArchGIS. --Adamant1 (talk) 12:56, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
The page says: "Jokes that are not a sub page of a user and not clearly marked as such [...] can be deleted". Where is the problem, Adamant1? --Tigerfell This user is member of the wiki team of OSM (Let's talk) 18:19, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
User icon 2.svgTigerfell (on osm, edits, contrib, heatmap, chngset com.), there's no problem I guess. I was just clarifying my position on joke pages for RicoZ I guess and why I think they should be deleted. If the consensus is that there's nothing wrong with them though, I'm perfectly fine with that. Given the caveat that I think the wiki represents OSM to a degree and as such articles should confirm to some level of professionalism and content standards. Which would exclude anything that might be construed as being at other peoples expense, and that's how I take the "joke proposals." If other people think condescension is funny, cool. We can keep the pages. I just don't think its worth the opportunity costs to do so. That's just my opinion though. It should at least be clear they are jokes or hoaxes on the pages. Which I think we all agree with. --Adamant1 (talk) 04:14, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

Moving proposals to userspace / deletion war discussion

I also think the non-useless old proposals should be moved to their original proposers’ userspaces. It solves the category and the search problem, thus satisfying System-users-3.svgAdamant1 (on osm, edits, contrib, heatmap, chngset com.). Maybe it’s a chance to cool down the angry mob of 9 anti-deleters (System-users-3.svgMateusz Konieczny (on osm, edits, contrib, heatmap, chngset com.), System-users-3.svgNakaner (on osm, edits, contrib, heatmap, chngset com.), System-users-3.svgRicoZ (on osm, edits, contrib, heatmap, chngset com.), System-users-3.svgPolarbear w (Polarbear on osm, edits, contrib, heatmap, chngset com.), User icon 2.svgDieterdreist (on osm, edits, contrib, heatmap, chngset com.), User icon 2.svgTordanik (on osm, edits, contrib, heatmap, chngset com.), System-users-3.svgConstantino (on osm, edits, contrib, heatmap, chngset com.), System-users-3.svgSmz (on osm, edits, contrib, heatmap, chngset com.), and System-users-3.svgRafmar (on osm, edits, contrib, heatmap, chngset com.)), too. If the editor who originally created the proposal has retired from everything OSM, most likely they wouldn’t care if we moved their proposals to their userspaces. They likely do not want to have anything to do with OSM anymore and have moved on with their lives, so they almost certainly wouldn’t care what happens to their proposals, especially considering they would be kept, and besides they were the creators of them anyway. If the editor is still active on OSM and the OSM Wiki and still hasn’t replied (for maybe 2 weeks) then we should probably go along with the deletion process, especially if the proposal was created by accident or has no informative content. (Did I use that System-users-3.svg template too much?) ;). — EzekielT (talk) 08:08, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

As I already pointed out numerous times, I think that moving pages is asking for trouble. If some of these people you pinged would actually want to speak up, I would be very happy, but please do not suggest something for someone else, who does not speak up. --Tigerfell This user is member of the wiki team of OSM (Let's talk) 09:16, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
I guess if they did care enough about the issue, they would be participating in the discussion. So it’s probably just going to be the 4 of us. But we should tell them that they shouldn’t avoid this discussion and then start reverting again once we’ve come up with the guidelines. That’s what I think will happen, as a certain editor in particular does not want even one proposal page deleted, while another one wants the absolute opposite, and they have both repeatedly reverted each other and engaged in the deletion war. Which is why I believe in moving pages, it’s a solid compromise between everyone and a good way to avoid further edit wars in this deletion war. The anti-deleters would be happy the pages weren’t deleted, while Adamant1 would be happy the pages would no longer be in any categories and wouldn’t be visible in the search (fixing their two main concerns). I have split the sections now for you, as a response to your off-topic complaint (which means I had to split your comment into two, sorry if this annoys you). — EzekielT (talk) 10:20, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
"I guess if they did care enough about the issue, they would be participating in the discussion" - it is not working this way. Just because you have time to propose deletion over and over again does not mean that all people against this have time to argue against this. There was attempt to mass delete, there was clear opposition. Why you continue attempts to hide/delete all inactive proposals? Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 13:41, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
@Mateusz Konieczny:: I only said that to concede to Adamant1’s belief that you do not actually care about whether pages are deleted or not because you aren’t participating much and their point about “fake outrage”, and Tigerfell’s point that you 8 aren’t speaking up. I believe you have confused me with System-users-3.svgAdamant1 (on osm, edits, contrib, heatmap, chngset com.)? I have not deleted all inactive proposals, nor do I want to. I in fact had reverted Adamant1 multiple times and restored pages, just as I had reverted you and deleted pages as well. I even reverted myself quite a few times. So I’m, as Adamant1 says, "pretty middle of the road" here. — EzekielT (talk) 17:08, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
"non-useless old proposals should be moved to their original proposers’ userspaces" - "It solves the category and the search problem" - untrue, user pages are not searched by default. I am against this misleading proposal. Why you want to hide/delete all old proposals? I thought that I was aggressive with marking old proposals as inactive. For search - see for example search for service=turning_loop (it is on one of my user pages): https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?search=service%3Dturning_loop&title=Special:Search&profile=default&fulltext=1&searchToken=7h0yq9tosvvl92w353fxzrn02 Also, this discussion is on subpage of user talk page - so it is hard to treat results of such discussion seriously. I almost ignored ping because it looked like some discussion of Tigerfell with someone else Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 13:39, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
System-users-3.svgMateusz Konieczny (on osm, edits, contrib, heatmap, chngset com.): “user pages are not searched by default” - that’s the point, @Adamant1: does not want the old proposals to show up in the search or categories. — EzekielT (talk) 17:08, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
I am also against this. Either it is in the wiki and then you should be able to find it (because that is the point of it) or it is not in the wiki. Moving pages so they are not found does not help anyone, it is just confusing.
I think that moving pages is asking for trouble, because I feel uneasy about doing some maintenance work like categorisation on a user sub page without consent. If someone would fiddle with User:Tigerfell/Sandbox, I think I would automatically revert because they did not ask me and I did not invite them. --Tigerfell This user is member of the wiki team of OSM (Let's talk) 19:07, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
We would get consent from the proposer first. If they refuse, then we would delete the pages. — EzekielT (talk) 19:25, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
You said, you basically suggested this because Adamant1 "does not want the old proposals to show up". I think this whole concept is wrong. But I would like @Adamant1: to speak for themselves, if they see an issue there. No comment of this user in this section so far... --Tigerfell This user is member of the wiki team of OSM (Let's talk) 20:02, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
System-users-3.svgMateusz Konieczny (on osm, edits, contrib, heatmap, chngset com.) "Just because you have time to propose deletion over and over again does not mean that all people against this have time to argue against this. There was attempt to mass delete, there was clear opposition."
One, last time I checked this is a community website. Which goes with the assumption that anytime you do something here there's a good chance it will involve discussion with other people. If you don't have time to talk things out, don't edit things here, especially reverting people. Its pretty simple. It's like I have a lot of free time to discuss things myself, but that's life. I find it ironic (or slightly disingenuous?) that you and others seem to have plenty of time to do the reverts and send me threatening, abusive messages on my user page repeatedly, but then when it comes time to explain yourself's suddenly all of you have better things to do.
Two, ten deletion proposals or whatever it was ins't a "mass deletion" and its definitely disingenuous to say so. Also, what gives you the right to define what counts as a "mass deletion" over everyone else that didn't think it was? Your clearly think your opinions are superior and the only ones that matter. Which is why your unwilling to discuss things when your given the opportunity. Plus its why when you do discuss things you always just repeat crap over and over, instead of actually listening and considering the other person's opinion. It has nothing to do with a lack of time.
Three, as I've said repeatedly, requesting a deletion is not a deletion. You keep purposely conflating the two to be hyperbolic and I'm pretty sick of it. Also, there wasn't "clear opposition." I tired of defending myself against that also.
This is a good example of that whole personalizing thing that Tigerfell was talking about. Instead of just saying what your position is guidelines and what you agree with or don't, you spend time crapping on me repeatedly again. What I did or didn't do is irrelevant because these rules should have been in place anyway. They are pretty basic stuff that literally other community based website has. If you don't want rules because they will stop you from being able to lord around like you run the place, fine. Don't put it on me or my "bad behavior" because they are being created though. At least we want your feedback and opinion on this. That's more then I can say for 99% of the conversations I've seen you have with people. I'm perfectly willing to go revert all my deletion proposals right now if you want. Then you can go kick rocks, we will create the guidelines without your opinion, and 99% of those pages will be deleted eventually anyway. I could really care less what order its done in or how it takes. I'm just not going to be pushed around or lied about repeatedly, by you or anyone else here. --Adamant1 (talk) 04:00, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

@Adamant1:: "At least we want your feedback and opinion on this" - Mateusz's own words speak for themselves (yes, I'm repeating the quote again):

System-users-3.svgMateusz Konieczny (on osm, edits, contrib, heatmap, chngset com.): "I think that proposals should be never deleted - even really misguided or pointless".

So Mateusz wants 0 proposals to be deleted... probably not going to happen ;). — EzekielT (talk) 04:34, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

Yeah well, Ideally we should all be able to compromise and meet somewhere in the middle. I know that's not realistic, but I can dream. --Adamant1 (talk) 05:12, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
@Adamant1:: a ‘’compromise’’, yes, that very same compromise I’ve been formulating for a while now:

1. A proposal page is identified as old.

2. Identify if the proposal has useful content (e.g. Proposed features/Marked trail) or is nearly empty and serves no purpose (e.g. Proposed features/castle). The second case would be immediately deleted without further discussion.

2. If the proposal has useful content in it, we would reach out to the original proposer (if they are still active on OSM and OSM Wiki), asking them if we can move it to their userspace. Or even better, ask if they can do it themselves. If they do not respond for two weeks or more, or simply refuse to move them, then we’ll just go ahead with deleting them (or maybe hold a vote whether to keep them or not?). In the case that the particular user is retired from everything OSM, we should just move them to their userspace, as they will almost definitely not care about what’s going on here anymore.

3. The proposals which get moved to their respective creator’s userspaces will have all of their categories removed, and would be in only one category: “Old proposals moved to userspaces”.

And voila. No more old proposals clogging up the searches and categories (satisfying Adamant1). No more people complaining about proposals being deleted (satisfying everyone). — EzekielT (talk) 05:37, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

Definitions

Maybe it is worth keeping the definitions of "deletion request" and "delete proposal" to aid novices? --Tigerfell This user is member of the wiki team of OSM (Let's talk) 11:56, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

Could be added again, should there be a glossary at the end of the section? RicoZ (talk) 19:54, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
Sounds good. --Tigerfell This user is member of the wiki team of OSM (Let's talk) 10:31, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

OOjs UI icon check-constructive.svg --Tigerfell This user is member of the wiki team of OSM (Let's talk)

"Pages that are contrary to basic principles in OSM"

In current form it may be used to request deletion of for example Proposed_features/historic_event and some other proposals. I would not consider it as desirable, as documentation that it is horrible idea with link to discussion (or discussion itself) is useful.

"proposing to severely violating copyright" for me falls into blatant vandalism or spam, is this rule really necessary? Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 13:45, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

Yes, technically it is different:
  • Violating copyright: copying from copyrighted sources without permission or suggesting such a behaviour in a proposal
  • Vandalism: lowering the quality of the data with the clear intend to do so
  • Spam: adding advertising or unrelated content
--Tigerfell This user is member of the wiki team of OSM (Let's talk) 18:23, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
Proposed_features/historic_event would definitely not be deleted, because it contains a vote. --Tigerfell This user is member of the wiki team of OSM (Let's talk) 20:04, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

Old imports

"Documentation of ancient imports should be kept until all traces of the imports vanished." - note that given that exports of full planet history are available edits never disappear (except in rare cases of removal of edits from history). I will amend to note that import documentation is never suitable for removal Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 13:47, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

You got a point there. --Tigerfell This user is member of the wiki team of OSM (Let's talk) 18:33, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
+1 --Adamant1 (talk) 04:18, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

Sole editor

"You were the only editor of the page and consider the content outdated" - I would formulate it as "and others are not against removal". There are some cases of people getting their accounts hacked or leaving community with a tantrum and attempted desctruction of content that they contributed.

For example if someone would make import or bot edit that turned out to be misleadingly described they are not allowed to simply delete documentation, even if they would be sole authors Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 13:51, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

Honestly? Both of us know that this refers to either proposals or software as described in parentheses. Your case is "vandalism". Yes, the rules do not cover every single bit, but please do not make it overly complicated by constructing some rare cases. We are trying to set up general guidelines to avoid discussions in 99% of the cases. --Tigerfell This user is member of the wiki team of OSM (Let's talk) 18:29, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

"Proposals that only mention a tag that is not in use without describing/explaining its meaning"

Can someone give example of currently existing pages that would be deleted under this rule? Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 13:55, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

Please check the forum. I constructed some sample cases after your last reply in discussion with Dieterdreist.
I found a case in Special:ShortPages yesterday, but of course I did not request deletion because we still debate on the rules. I think it was somewhere around the 1000th shortest page. --Tigerfell This user is member of the wiki team of OSM (Let's talk) 18:32, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
There was a couple of cases I came across a while ago. I can't remember what they were now unfortunately. I'll try to find them again though. --Adamant1 (talk) 04:21, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
Proposed features/All Highway Tags, Proposed features/employment agency (which you edited, but probably didn't even read. Not surprising), Proposed features/Access only (has "examples" but nothing really explaining it), Proposed features/cape (has a link to Wikipedia for the definition. The conversation on the talk page is all about place=locality also), Proposed features/Cargo (kind of has a definition but not really. Blank otherwise. Could probably be deleted), Proposed features/Civic centre (no definition, could probably be deleted despite discussion as its mostly off topic), Proposed features/cluster (no definition), Proposed features/Crop (no definition, lots of talk on main page but not really clear what its about), Proposed features/Key:dafor (not really clear what it is and none sense comment about it), --Adamant1 (talk) 07:49, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

Deletion requests reverted

System-users-3.svgMateusz Konieczny (on osm, edits, contrib, heatmap, chngset com.), I reverted all my deletion requests (except a few that I couldn't revert for some reason, including a few you and others screwed with. Good job there). I look forward to you reverting the remaining 148 deletion requests or the sending the users who did them messages that they should. Since its nothing personal and your just against deletions in general. To get you started, you can revert your own deletion request Tag:shop=canoe_hire. It would only be fair. while your at it, you can also chide Nakaner at Talk:Tag:motorcycle friendly=customary for requesting that page be deleted. I also look forward to your participation in the discussions when I eventually covert all the pages I reverted into deletion proposals. I'm not holding my breath for you to do any of that though. P.S. I reverted myself done purely to highlight your hypocrisy (as if its not glaringly obvious already). Plus, I'm sure most of the pages will be deleted eventually either way.

Btw, for anyone interested 30ish (about 15% or about 1.5 out of 10) out of 180 current deletion requests where mine. Only like 6 of those (about 3% or way less then 1/10 of the total deletion requests) were proposals. The rest of my deletion requests were Kosmos rules. Which I only screwed with because there was a requested to deal with with Kosmos stuff on the cleanup project. Two years later I still haven't seen anyone that threw a tantrum at me about it change anything on the cleanup project article or discuss the issue there. There's also zero evidence that anyone else but me out of the remaining 148 deletion requests has been lectured about like I was. Although Mateusz Konieczny did revert a deletion request by Tigerfell once. He didn't send the user bossy messages about it though and there's still 148 deletion requests that haven't been reverted by Mateusz Konieczny or anyone else who supposedly has an issue with this. --Adamant1 (talk) 06:41, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

@Adamant1:: if System-users-3.svgMateusz Konieczny (on osm, edits, contrib, heatmap, chngset com.) doesn’t do it, then I will do it for them. Since it would be unfair for you to be singled out amongst all of the others. So I guess that’s it...? Adamant1 is defeated...? What does this mean...? Does this mean we should stop progress on this draft...? Does this mean we’re not deleting pages anymore...? Cause some of the ones you {{delete}}d have no informative content and I really think those should be deleted. And my userspace idea...? — EzekielT (talk) 07:29, 9 March 2019 (UTC)