Proposal:Bread bakery
| shop=bakery,bread_bakery,confectionery | |
|---|---|
| Proposal status: | Rejected (inactive) |
| Proposed by: | CS Mur |
| Tagging: | shop=bakery,bread_bakery,confectionery |
| Applies to: |  , 
|
| Definition: | For shops selling various bakery goods or confections |
| Statistics: |
|
| Rendered as: | as a shop of appropriate type |
| Draft started: | 2013-06-09 |
| RFC start: | 2013-06-11 |
| Vote start: | 2013-06-27 |
| Vote end: | 2013-07-11 |
Summary
OSM currently has misleading English labels and definitions used for the tags for bakery and confectionery shops, especially based on common usage in many English-speaking nations. These are probably the result of language translation mismatches.
Many English cultures are comfortable using one term for shops of any type of bakery goods (bakery), but some (European) cultures are not. Some cultures have separate terms for a bakery that produces bread used as a staple than one selling other baked goods and no common term to group the two. There may be regulatory reasons in parts of Europe for not grouping them.
This proposal fixes the bad definitions in English for bakery and confectionery, and provides two types of bakery shops. Additional sub tags to specify types of goods sold and other properties are also defined.
Current Use
| Key | Value | Elements | Description | Icon | Image |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| shop | bakery |
|
Selling bread |  |
 |
| shop | confectionery |
|
A shop selling sweets and pastry |  |
You may click on the key value in the table to see the current bakery or confectionery article.
Proposal
The revised entries for shops
| Key | Value | Elements | Description | Icon | Image |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| shop | bakery |
|
A shop selling cakes, pastries, pies, bread or other bakery goods. For a shop focused on bread see shop=bread_bakery. For setting properties and types of bakery goods sold, see the article for details | |
 |
| shop | bread_bakery |
|
A shop selling bread. Bakeries that exclusively sell, or with primarily focus on, the breads used as a staple in the local diet. | |
|
| shop | confectionery |
|
A shop that sells sweets and chocolates (North Amer: candies). For setting properties and types of sweets sold, see the article for details | |
Revised shop=bakery article
Tag:shop=bakery
A shop that sells bakery goods such as cakes, pastries, pies, and bread. The shop may sell bread used as a staple, but that is not its only focus. The types of bakery goods sold may be specified with tags, see the Types of bakery goods table in this article.
The French viennoiserries, French/Belgian patisserie, German konditorei (at least ones not better as a amentity=cafe) and feinbackerei fit here.
Tags to use in combination
The kinds of bakery goods are large and varied, can be grouped, but as wikipedia says in a cake article: "Determining whether a given food should be classified as bread, cake, or pastry can be difficult." The following table provides some organization for tagging the variety of bakery products offered by a shop. Consider how a user doing a search on a type of bakery good would react upon going to the bakery for that good, so tagging very minor offerings is probably not good practice. Tagging types yes or no may be important in regions where use of a shop type name or certification is regulated based on what is sold.
A number of bakeries only sell speciality breads (holiday breads) during certain seasons such as Christmas, Easter, Passover; specialty_bread=sometimes should be used. This informs the OSM user seeking such baked goods to check with the bakery whether it is currently being sold before a trip to the bakery.
| Tag | Description | Examples of Type |
|---|---|---|
| bagel=yes/no | A leavened, ring shaped, firm textured roll made of dough, first poached then baked. see Bagel on Wikipedia | bagel |
| bread=yes/no | A food made from flour or meal mixed with milk or water to make a dough, with or without yeast or other leavening agent, then baked. Especially such bakery goods considered a staple. | yeast bread, artisan bread, rustic bread, dinner roll, hard roll, flat bread, soda bread, baguettes, ciabatta, focaccia, pita, tortilla |
| cake=yes/no | A bakery good made from a batter usually containing flour, sugar, baking powder or soda, eggs and flavouring, and may contain shortening or oil. | layer cake, sheet cake, snack cake, bundt cake, pound cake, sponge cake, cupcake, torte, fruit cake, nut cake. |
| cobbler=yes/no | A baked fruit dessert that uses a batter or dough as a base, top or shell. see Cobbler (food) on Wikipedia | cobbler, bettie, (American usage) crisp, crumble, pandowdy, fruit dumpling. |
| cookie=yes/no | A small cake baked from stiff sweet dough. see Cookie on Wikipedia | cookie, brownie, blondie, bar cookie, shortbread, (British usage) biscuit |
| donut=yes/no | A fried or baked dough dessert food often in a ring or flattened sphere shape. May have a filling. see Donut on Wikipedia | donut, doughnut, beignet, fritter, twist |
| pastry=yes/no | A baked food primarily made with pastry dough. see Pastry on Wikipedia | baklava, croissant, danish pastry, kolache, puff pastry, cream puff, eclair, strudel, turnover. |
| pie=yes/no | A baked food using a pastry crust. see Pie on Wikipedia | pie, tart, pastie, quiche. |
| speciality_bread=yes/no/sometimes | A bread not considered a staple, a treat made from bread dough, or quick bread. | holiday bread, monkey bread, brioche, challah, stollen, quick bread, banana bread, zucchini bread, bun, cinnamon roll, sweet roll, cornbread, spoonbread, muffin, (non-British usage) biscuit, english muffin, scone, popover |
| Tag | Description | Example |
|---|---|---|
| name=* | Name of shop. | |
| opening_hours=* | When the shop is open. | Mon-Sat 10:00-20:00 |
| organic=yes/no/only | Whether shop sells organic food. | |
| gluten_free=yes/no/only | Whether the shop sells baked goods without gluten. | |
| lactose_free=yes/no | Whether the shop sells baked goods without lactose. | |
| day_old=yes/no/only | Whether the shop sells baked goods that are not fresh today, usually at a substantial price discount. A day_old=only shop specializes in the sale of products nearing their marked or known expiration, usually returns from other retail businesses. | |
| craft=* | The shop employs a certified specialist, or meets regulatory requirements for restricted use of names or certification. | craft=bakery |
| cuisine=* | Use only where the cuisine of shop differs from the cuisine most common in the region of the shop. | cuisine=german (for a German bakery in the U.S.) |
Similar Tags
shop=bread_bakery tag covers bakeries whose primary purpose is the sale of breads that are a staple of the diet.
amenity=fast_food or amenity=cafe may be a better tag for places which also sell drinks and the product is often consumed on premises or near by, such as the many bagel or donut chains. A shop=bakery may have a table or two, but the focus is "carry-home".
new shop=bread bakery article
Tag:shop=bread_bakery
A shop that sells bread. Bakeries that exclusively sell, or with primarily focus on, the breads used as a staple in the local diet. Bakeries for which substantial parts of their business are sweet breads or non-bread bakery goods should use the shop=bakery tag.
A German bakerei, French boulangerie, or Mexican tortilleria fit this tag.
Tags to use in combination
| Tag | Description | Example |
|---|---|---|
| name=* | Name of shop. | |
| opening_hours=* | When the shop is open. | Mon-Sat 10:00-20:00 |
| organic=yes/no/only | Whether shop sells organic food. | |
| gluten_free=yes/no/only | Whether the shop sells baked goods without gluten. | |
| lactose_free=yes/no | Whether the shop sells baked goods without lactose. | |
| day_old=yes/no/only | Whether the shop sells baked goods that are not fresh today, usually at a substantial price discount. A day_old=only shop specializes in the sale of products nearing their (marked) expiration; goods are usually returns from other retail businesses. | |
| craft=* | The shop employs a certified specialist, or meets regulatory requirements for restricted use of names or certification. | craft=bakery |
| cuisine=* | Use only where the cuisine of shop differs from the cuisine most common in the region of the shop. | cuisine=french (for a French bakery in the U.K.) |
Similar Tags
shop=bakery tag covers bakeries for which bread (used as a staple) is not most of their business.
amenity=fast_food or amenity=cafe may be a better tag for places which also sell drinks and the product is often consumed on premises, such as the many bagel or donut chains.
revised shop=confectionery article
Tag:shop=confectionery
A shop that sells sweets: candy and chocolates. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confectionery
Tags to use in combination
| Tag | Description | Image | Image |
|---|---|---|---|
| common_sweets=yes/no | (British) Sugar confections, chocolate bars, gums, jellies, fruit sweets, licorice, mints, toffees. (North Amer.) Sugar candy, hard candy, gummy and gelatin candy, taffy, candy bars. Typically displayed in bins or packaged in wrappers, bags, or boxes. |  |
 |
| chocolates=yes/no | Mass produced chocolates or ones produced with average ingredients. Typically sold in boxes, but shop may have display case trays of individual pieces. | .jpg) |
.jpg) |
| artisan_sweets=yes/no/only | High quality sweets crafted in small batches with artisan techniques from finest quality ingredients, typically made in the shop. May include fine chocolates, caramels, toffees, and marzipan. Shop often uses display cases with arrayed unpackaged products on trays and encourages customer input for selection of individual pieces. |  |
 |
| Tag | Description | Example |
|---|---|---|
| name=* | Name of shop. | |
| opening_hours=* | When the shop is open. | Mo-Sa 10:00-20:00 |
| organic=yes/no/only | Whether the shop sells organic food. | |
| craft=* | The shop employs a certified specialist, or meets regulatory requirements for restricted use of names or certification. | craft=confectionery |
Rationale
General reasons for the proposal
The currently used English definitions for the tags are misleading or wrong. Defining a bakery as "sells bread" is highly misleading. In many English speaking nations, a bakery is more likely a cake or pastry shop. Walk into a U.S. shop using bakery in the name and you are unlikley to encounter rows or bins of loaf bread, instead you will more often (something over 90% of the time) encounter cakes, pastries, or cookies with lesser or no selection of bread. Instead pick a shop using bread in the name to find those loaves of bread. Listing pastry as a product of a confectionery is considered wrong by many as pastry is the product of a bakery and confectionery means a candy or chocolates shop. Look at the listings in American, Austrailian, British, and Canadian business directories (yellow pages), Bakery is the general term with subcategories for cakes, pastries, bread and other baked goods. Non-bread bakery businesses strongly outnumber the bread businesses in the general Bakery category. Confectionery, if used as a directory category, is the place to find shops selling candies and chocolates.
English words can have multiple meanings. Unfortunately bakery, pastry, cake, confectionery, sweet, and candy are those with ambiguous meanings when tagging. Depending on locale or usage or context, pastry is a subset of cakes, cake is a subset of pastries, or pastry and cake are distinct. The most unambiguous approach is to treat them as distinct and provide definitions and examples. Confectionery is a sugary candy other than chocolates, or a candy including chocolates, or a decoration used on wedding cakes, or any dessert, or any food creation that is whimsical in nature. In OSM, it makes sense to use the most used and best understood meaning: a sweet, candy, or chocolate. Sometimes a good term is simply missing in English. A English common term for all non-bread bakery products that is not ambiguous or awkward to use does not seem to exist.
Since taggers often don't consult the wiki for definitions, and users certainly don't, it makes sense to move to tags which are less likely to be misused or misinterpreted. Some of the current definitions are unlikely to be familair to the tagger or user, or when known by the tagger may be resisted. ("Tag a pastry shop as a confectionery? no way, it's a bakery!"). A current user, who is a native of an English speaking nation, would first search OSM for pastry and cake shops using "bakery" (and would find some now in OSM with such a search in the U.S.).
In some other cultures and languages, the distinction between bread and non-bread bakery goods is more exact (and important). Separating bread bakeries from non-bread bakeries meets a tagging need in these cultures without much problem for English speaking nations. Further separation of bakery types at the shop level adds complexity for taggers and users native of an English-speaking nation, with lesser gains for other cultures, than the proposed bakery goods sub tags, so was not done. In current OSM use, backeri and boulangerie are linked to bakery, when a much more appropriate term would have been bread shop. kondertorei, feinbakdere, patisserie, viennoiseries may be linked to confectionery when the most accurate term would have been bakery.
This proposal aims to overcome current deficiencies with more accurate and user-friendly tags and definitions.
Reasons for choices made within the proposal
The tags in the proposal were selected on best English usage within English-speaking nations. Dictionaries, business listings, wikipedia, web usage and a discussion on the Tagging mailing list were used to determine those terms that were the most frequently used and avoid ambiguity for most taggers and users.
In the bakery goods types tags, the American/Canadian/Austrailian term "cookie" was chosen over the British term "biscuit' because biscuit is ambiguous. Outside the U.K., biscuit is used for another bakery good that is not a cookie. British bakeries, when using cookie, seem to give it the same meaning it has elsewhere.
The current tag name "second_day" could not be found in the dictionary and use of the term eleswhere was for package delivery. It is replaced by day_old which is in the dictionary and is in common use. Taginfo says second_day is used 3 times in OSM. I first thought of using an bakery_outlet=yes/no (or outlet=yes/no) for stores selling primarily day old products, but discovered outlet is more likely to be interpreted in some regions as a sales-only (no baker on premises) location for a bakery having multiple shops in a town; so day_old=only seemed a better tag.
The sub type names for confectionery types are somewhat my invention. Other than a chocolates shop, no uniform catagories or ways of referring to types of confectionery shops was discovered across English directories, wikipedia or other sources, yet categories of shops clearly exist and would be useful for users to know. The choice of common_candy over common_sweet was based on some British sweets shops that did use candy and chololate as subcategories, and I felt it was better. Plural was chosen over singular for the tags as being less ambiguous.
Comments
The proposal evolved from this thread on the OSM Tagging mail list: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2013-June/013630.html
Please comment on the talk page
Voting
Voting was ended early as the proposal to split bakery shops is obviously unpopular. The proposal will be modified to remove that split and resubmitted for a vote.
Please use {{vote|yes}} or {{vote|no}} and give your reasons to oppose. Use ~~~~ to sign your user name & date.
I approve this proposal.CS Mur (talk) 21:56, 25 June 2013 (UTC)- I approve this proposal.Glassman (talk) 22:19, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
I oppose this proposal. I don't believe that mappers will get used to the idea that tagging a "Bäckerei" as "bakery" is suddenly wrong. Subtagging the "bakery focus" - such as bread or other baked goods - would likely cause less headaches than introducing new amenity values. (Additionally, some listed tags contradict Key:diet). --Tordanik 22:29, 25 June 2013 (UTC)- I oppose this proposal. Not convinced that shop=bread_bakery makes any sense; would lead to massive confusion in Germany which currently sports over 40% of the 60k worldwide shop=bakery entries since it is far from obvious (a) whether the shop sells "bread used as a staple" or other bread and (b) whether "most of the shop's business" is selling bread. I am less opposed to refining shop=bakery with additional tags about their goods but shop=bread_bakery, for me, is a no-go. --Frederik Ramm (talk) 22:41, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. devising an additional tag to use with shop=bakery would be a better solution. -- Harry Wood (talk) 23:01, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. shop=bakery + bread=yes/only(?) is much better than the word "bread_bakery" --MasiMaster (talk) 23:18, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. not convincing and contrary to the current meaning --Peda (talk) 23:31, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. Please use additional tags for shop=bakery and not a new value for shop=*, this might work with shop=convenience, aswell. Personally I prefer to know weather the products are factory made, baked-off or made in a traditional bakery. diet=* is already established and should be used. craft=* should be only used for place where the products are made e.g. where the craft is practised. --Skyper 23:40, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. The sentence Tag:shop=bread_bakery: A German bakerei, French boulangerie ... fit this tag. is completely wrong. None of the german "Bäckerei" or "boulangerie" in the french speaking part of Belgium (Wallonia) I visited so far, sold only bread. At least there they seam to be that seldom, that a special tag does make no sense. Wikipedia says: A bakery ... is an establishment that produces and sells flour-based food baked in an oven such as bread, cakes, pastries, and pies. I assume this has been approved from many Wikipedians and bakers all over the world. Thus I think we do not need a different definition at OSM. -- Tirkon (talk) 02:58, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal.Basstoelpel (talk) 04:58, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. I agree with everything said until now in this voting-section. --rayquaza (talk) 05:40, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. I prefere additional tags for shop=bakery chris66 (talk) 06:50, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal.--Geri-oc (talk) 08:10, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. In all bakeries I know, there are breads AND other things. I do not know any shop that only sells bread. I would rather prefer additional tags for shop=bakery --Poppei82 (talk) 08:38, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. Changing the semantics of a widely used tag (nearly 60000 objects) is a bad idea imho. Furthermore for most bakeries I know of, it will be nearly indistinguishable if it should be mapped correctly as bakery or as bread_bakery. This will be a matter of subjective perception of the mapper. Zartbitter (talk) 09:26, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. "Never change a running system" I prefer additional tags for shop=bakery. --wambacher 10:19, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. The absolutely essential “pretzel=no|yes|buttered” and “with_cheese_gratine=yes|no” are missing. Not to mention “apple_strudel=yes|no” --Netzwolf (talk) 10:47, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. The need for a change came up due to bakeries not selling bread. But the number of these is rather small compared to the existing shop=bakery. So from my point of view this proposal would change a large number of existing objects to accomodate a smaller number of new ones. Ohr (talk) 11:04, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. I see no point in introducing a distinction between "bakeries" and "bread bakeries" while it does not exist in reality. Oli-Wan (talk) 11:34, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. There may be countries where there are shops only selling bread. This is not sufficient to introduce a new tagging scheme confusing users in other countries. Additional tags should suffice. Seichter (talk) 11:42, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. I agree with all contra arguments said until this vote. Redefining a very common tag is a very bad idea. Both users of our data and the mappers itself are confused. How do you manage the retagging of all German bakerys? How do make the developers of all our editors (this is more than JOSM, Potlatch 1/2, iD etc.)? How do you prevent mappers who do not know about this proposal from using the false shop=bakery? Nakaner (talk) 12:11, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. This proposal makes distinctions that are at best ambiguous in reality and would require a lot of re-tagging (which may or may not happen). Introducing further sub-tags for products sold at a bakery makes much more sense to me. --Hobbesvsboyle (talk) 14:01, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. User 5359 (talk) 15:33, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. this proposal aims on the wrong tag to clarify IMHO, the problem is confectionery, not bakery, at least for me mapping in continental Europe. This is also how the thread started, see also discussion page. --Dieterdreist (talk) 16:03, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. do not make simple things complicated --Fx99 (talk) 16:30, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. use shop=bakery with bread_only=yes/no and you have a shop=bread_bakery --Reneman (talk) 16:49, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. Sellerhäuser (talk) 19:19, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. In too many cases it would be hard to determine if a bakery sells primarly bread or other. So keep it simple: a shop=bakery with bread=yes/no/only and all other sub-tags you think are useful, and you will have my approval. A clarification in the definitions of shop=confectionery and shop=pastry would be helpful too. --Viking81 (talk) 13:25, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
- I abstinence this proposal. Maybe there are bakeries which sell only bread, but I don't know none. It is no good inventing a tag from remote for potential uses. In my region a lot of bakeries call themselves "Bäckerei und Konditorei $Name" or "Feinbäckerei $Name" and all of them sell pastries and bread. I would assume the most bakeries which were mapped in Western Europe do sell not only bread but also some sweet stuff. Maybe a restart as a proposal for just enhancing shop=bakery would get a better voting result. Maybe with bread=yes/no pastry=yes/no and the sub tags for users who want to clarify things more.(Mea culpa, was a bit too hasty - revised my comment as the article was revised) -- malenki 13:26, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. As some stated out, here in Germany it's very mixed what bakerys sell. Sometimes they also include a cafe or selling sandwitchs etc. I really appreaciate the energy that you put in forming this proposal, but IMHO it's not the best way to clear this aspect. Anyway, thanks for petitioning! --!i!
06:03, 7 July 2013 (UTC) - I oppose this proposal. Do not make incompatible changes to widespread tags. If you want to be more precise, add a clarifying subtag. Also, the two proposed terms seem not to be clearly defined - I wouldn't know how to tag the common bakeries I know anymore. --Nop (talk) 09:40, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
