Motorcar vs (passenger) car
The use of the term motorcar might be somewhat confusing, but apart from the specific meaning of the -ambiguous words used, the explanation of the tag motorcar=no shows that "motorcar" refers to the wider category of "double tracked motor vehicles" and not solely to the sub-category of (passenger) cars:
- Note that motorcar=no means 'no entry for any power driven vehicle except two-wheeled motor cycles without :side-:car', thus implying hgv=no, motorhome=no etc.
Otherwise a road that would only be openend for (passenger) cars, but not for other double tracked motor vehicles would have to be tagged with [motorcar=yes;no]
Altough I'm not German, it shows that the German language and Wiki for motorcar and is more precise and explicit in this case:
- Offizielle Zugangserlaubnis für Kraftwagen und sonstige mehrspurige Kraftfahrzeuge, dazu gehören LKW, PKW, :Busse, Trecker aber keine Motorräder.
Not that clear. Altough I'm not German either, "sonstige" says that "Kraftwagen" is also a "mehrspurige" so the group is double-tracked vehicle.
The access wiki page hierarchy says:
- motor_vehicle=* (category: any motorized vehicle)
- Double-tracked (category: motor vehicles with more than 2 wheels/more than 1 track)
- motor_vehicle=* (category: any motorized vehicle)
The bullets position shows what traffic category are in the same group. The hierarchy. motorcar and hgv are in the same group. hgv=* can not be used to overrule the motorcar=* Openstreetmap key motorcar can not be explained as as two different explanations, the imply is false
It is time that it gets his own key:double_tracked_motor_vehicle or a shorter name, dt_motor_vehicle
- double_tracked_motor_vehicle=* Double-tracked (category: motor vehicles with more than 2 wheels/more than 1 track)
"(category: motor vehicles with more than 2 wheels/more than 1 track)" often so announced in the country law. I like to keep the translation to Openstreetmap as direct as possible, if it is possible in the hierarchy.
Routing engine should import this hierarchy key in their codestring. Then motorcar can stay, what it is a car/motorcar.
There must be a clear hierarchy.
AllroadsNL 20:50, 16 Septembre 2018 (UTC)
Please change the icon of the traffic sign
As I can read on Czech wikipedia the traffic sign you put in this article is obsolete (https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopravn%C3%AD_zna%C4%8Den%C3%AD_v_%C4%8Cesku#Zru%C5%A1en%C3%A9_zna%C4%8Dky). Please change it for the available form of CZ:B03 as you can see on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_signs_in_the_Czech_Republic
- You are right; Prohibitory signs depicting a passenger car from the side are rare, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_European_road_signs#Prohibitory
- I will change it back to the more common form (frontal silhouette) that already appeared in some versions of this wiki. Best regards (and collecting courage to adress the other points ;-) Multimodaal (talk) 18:57, 3 October 2018 (UTC)
The icon is not correct, the frontview , with the car from the side , then it is correct! A motorcar is a personal car, automobiles/cars . The icon should only be with the car from the side and not with the red circle from the traffic_sign. The motorcar is mentioned, not a traffic_sign, then it is wrong to make a traffic_sign visible. Motorcar is used for more then only on traffic_sign. Also see above hierarchy. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Sinnbild_PKW.svg AllroadsNL 21:05, 3 October 2018 (UTC)
- BTW: There is no separation between the meaning of a frontal and a sideways silhouette in the Vienna convention (Germany seems the exception here): Where a sideways silhouette of a passenger car is stated on another specific prohibition sign, it does not refer to a more specific, but to an even wider category:
"sign C, 10, "DRIVING OF VEHICLES LESS THAN ... METRES APART PROHIBITED". It generally rather depends on the type of sign the passenger car is depicted on, regardless if it is from the front or the side Multimodaal (talk) 21:11, 3 October 2018 (UTC)
- The point is that we have to develop the wiki from an Openstreetmap perspective and we can look how countries do it. From Openstreetmap perspective, there are the groups, double tracked vehicle and the passenger car. We as Openstreetmap both have to give them a key and a associated icon. (differently).In doing so, we attempt to follow the countries rules, but in some cases Openstreetmap has to make its own choice.
- Both groups are desirable because both must be able to be used. It is needed!
- This sometimes means that traffic signs country page where the traffic signs have a different icon than the icon associated with the Openstreetmap description, must be able to use the appropriate key to be able to tag the traffic sign. Translate to Openstreetmap method in their country.(page)
- When we choose for two keys, we can avoid tag constructions, as:
- The equivalent explicit tagging is: motor_vehicle = no + motorcycle = yes (+ moped = yes / mofa = yes if one of these categories is used in the corresponding country and is not counted as motorcycle). Which are often not fully tagged.a part is contrariwise tagging. For small groups, such as mofa and moped, can this be a disadvantaged. Because it is forgotten, we see this very often also on barriers. No routing. We can avoid this.
Better to tackle the problem at the roots and choose good keys for the groups.AllroadsNL 23:50, 3 October 2018 (UTC)
double_tracked_motor_vehicle, wrong? multi_tracked_motor_vehicle
Why, because law speaks about more then one track and more then two wheels. The category must fit all vehicle that belongs to the category. For example: three-wheelers, trikes must also fit this category. Then the name double_tracked_motor_vehicle does not fit the whole category. multi_tracked_motor_vehicle, does fit the category more. And there is single_tracked_motor_vehicle. Or is a shorter name better, mt_motor_vehicle, st_motor_vehicle?
I did set some double_tracked_motor_vehicle, because it is the shortest, most directly, fitting translation of the icon from a traffic_sign, although i used the most extensive tagging too (because not to disrupt the routing as it is now, hierarchy) Used it also because the access page mentioned double_tracked, but now I think multi_tracked_motor_vehicle is much better. (or mt_motor_vehicle) The access page should be change too, in multi_tracked_motor_vehicle. Routing should taking over and insert a new step in the hierarchy to make it work. --AllroadsNL (talk) 20:20, 21 January 2020 (UTC)