Talk:Tag:amenity=public bath

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Public bath

So what is a public bath? Is it a house where the public pays to get access to bath tubs, showers, etc? Or is it a bath in a lake, where you do not have to pay/have to pay to use it? Riggwelter (talk) 17:18, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

From the discussion in the mail list I gather this is meant for bathing facilities as you describe, so this is not a general tag for all places to bathe at. My suggestion is yo use this tag when the other in play, sports_centre, spa, beach_resort, water_park doesn't really seem to fit. I am not sure for bathing facilities that comprise of a big indoor swimming pool (and changing room, showers etc) if swimmin_pool or public_bath is to prefer. /Johan Jönsson (talk) 21:56, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Examples: amenity=spa

Why are all examples with amenity=spa (which is a undefined tag)? --AndiG88 (talk) 11:59, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Good question, I don't know. The Onsen-example was formulated at ML discussion thread about this feature and it does not mention spa. I tested the Onsen-scheme on Iceland to see if the scheme could work. I'll put a note behind saying it is a proposal. /Johan Jönsson (talk) 12:24, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
It's a pretty bad "proposal" Talk:Tag:amenity=spa --AndiG88 (talk) 13:52, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Poorly defined

I agree that this definition page doesn't currently allow to say what is included and what not, and when other tags should be used. Also, it speaks about bathing, but the picture shows a shower. Are public showers included? What about gender, how should it be tagged that there are at least 4 possibilities: only for men, only for women, mixed, for both genders but separated? --Dieterdreist (talk) 11:19, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

I agree this page is confusing, but maybe not hopelessly so? I think "location where the public may bathe in common" is pretty clear. Maybe anything about locations for relaxation/therapy (amenity=spa/amenity=sauna) should be moved off? I also find all the specific tagging for Japanese and Icelandic baths confusing. Here are some responses to the other issues you raise:
  • Picture: maybe this image would be better and more typical?
  • Showers: shower=* is mentioned on the Bathing page, and could be mentioned more prominently here.
  • Gender: the amenity=toilets tag seems to have brought us the male=*, female=* and unisex=* tags, which is a start.
--Neuhausr (talk) 18:51, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

Yes, it is fixable. Thanks go to selfish seahorse for fixing the image. I'm adding references to the shower and gender documentation (as you say, it is a start, I didn't intend going into LBGT etc. discussions, although there might be room for it, I'm not currently adding it. --Dieterdreist (talk) 08:37, 28 September 2017 (UTC)

I took the liberty to further revise the wiki page and to add the sub-tags bath:type=hammam/thermal. I hope you don't mind. --SelfishSeahorse (talk) 21:05, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Thank you, I have amended a minimum temperature (this is what "thermal" basically refers to, besides the mineral rich aspects) according to the German definition, because I couldn't find other references. Maybe we also need a "spa" subtype? --Dieterdreist (talk) 09:54, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

Thank you, too. Actually, amenity=spa already exists. However, the problem is that the term 'spa' is ambiguous - according to the Oxford Dictionary it can refer to:
  1. A mineral spring considered to have health-giving properties.
  2. A place or resort with a mineral spring.
  3. A commercial establishment offering health and beauty treatment through such means as steam baths, exercise equipment, and massage.
  4. A bath containing hot aerated water.
For (1) we have natural=spring, (4) might better be labelled hot tubs/Jacuzzis/whirlpools and (2) corresponds to the proposal bath:type=thermal. The question is, what should we do with (3)? Unfortunately, I don't know a synonym. It might be best to use amenity=spa only for (3) and to adjust its definition shop=beauty for such establishments. --SelfishSeahorse (talk) 16:12, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

Onsen vs Sento vs Onyokushisetu?

Kz1000s1, thank you for updating the page. I see that you changed bath:type=onsen to bath:type=onyokushisetu and added bath:type=sento. However, the current definition is not really clear, at least to a foreigner. Can we clarify the difference between these types of baths?

Is bath:type=onsen wrong? It has a page Tag:bath:type=onsen and has been used nearly 400 times, the most common value of bath:type=*. If you wish to deprecate onsen, has this been discussed with the Japanese mapping community? You would need to update the bath:type=* page and bath:type=onsen page after discussion.

Also, the current text is now contradictory. One list at the top says to use "bath:type=onyokushisetu", but the next list includes bath:type=onsen, bath:type=sento, bath:type=super_sento, bath:type=sunayu etc, and then the next table says to use bath:type=foot_bath for a Ashiyu and bath:type=onsen for a Sunayu. This is confusing.

But thank you again for your contributions. Please discuss further at the Japanese mailing list perhaps: "このメーリングリストに投稿された過去のメールは, Talk-ja 保存書庫をご覧下さい." https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ja --Jeisenbe (talk) 07:06, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

Jeisenbe, I am honored to have you interested in my activities.
And I would like to improve my description with the advice of seniors, especially yours, and achieve good results.
I do not know how much discussion on the Japanese mailing list is taking place but I can't ignore the fact that the poorly written contents in the public bath section was neglected for a long time.
So I'll write an immediate reply here in English.
ONSEN and SENTO:
ONSEN in Japanese is a term that belongs to the same level as SENTO, and both are sometimes used to refer to the same thing, but one is not a term that subsumes the other.
For this reason, I suggested that we would use the term ONYOKUSHISETSU, hot-water bathing facility in Japanese, which is a superordinate concept of the two.
However, it is a judgment based on the meaning of Japanese ONSEN. I overlooked that Japanese ONSEN could have a different meaning than English onsen.
I have a similar example: Yakitori - a skewered dish of Japan.
YAKITORI in Japanese refers to small charcoal grilled chicken skewers.
Yakitori in English means Japanese style skewered dishes, and the ingredients are not defined, so beef yakitori is common.
In Japan, the signage of a shop selling beef skewers with the expression "BEEF YAKITORI" should cause a noticeable discomfort to those who see it.
Chicken skewers made of beef are nonsense.
SENTO is a public bathing facility whose role and attributes are defined by the Japanese Public Bath Law.
So real SENTO can only exist in Japan, and those who do not meet the requirements of the law can not claim SENTO.
ONSEN is a kind of public bathing facility stipulated in the Public Bathing Law too, but it is characterized as a bathing amenity using natural hot spring water.
The common perception in Japanese society follows the definition above.
There are some ONSEN that have roles, functions, and social positions perfectly match SENTO. But if they do not meet the requirements of the Public Bath Law or are not recognized as SENTO by the prefectural government, they will be called SOTOYU - an external bath - instead of SENTO.
The problem is:
Recently, I saw a sento point on OSM that seems to have been set up by a SENTO manager himself.
It doesn't have the type tag.
The OSM editor proposes only three choices of the public bath type for the type tag: onsen (Japanese), ashiyu, and onsen (not-Japanese).
I had to ignore the type tags of SENTO points too. I want to break this situation.
I would like to improve the situation of the checkbox for sunayu subtag too.
It has only four locations in Japan so it should be deleted. Who placed it there? Useless.
I'm familiar with hot bath facilities in Japan, but not with this wiki. I would appreciate your advice. kz1000s1 (talk) 04:55 Mar 18 2020 JST.
Thank you for responding. I do not have much knowledge about public bath facilities, so it would be best to discuss this with the Japanese mapper community. I think the mailing list https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ja is active (see archives: https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-ja/). Also try asking on Talk:Japan_tagging or search Talk:Japan_tagging/Archives.
But here are some general principles:
1) Discuss your new tags with the community first. Consider making a proposal using the Proposal_process. (You can make a proposal just in Japanese if your new tags are only for Japan. See an example: Proposed_Japan_tagging/Road_types).
2) If you edit this page, please also edit the pages for the specific tags: e.g. Key:bath:type, Tag:bath:type=onsen, etc.
3) Tags in Openstreetmap are based on real, current features. They must be verifiable by a mapper when they visit the location in person. Tag definitions should not depend on a government declaration, but rather on real-world differences. In this case, the difference between an Onsen and Sento seems to be that an Onsen is fed by a natural hot spring, while a Sento is a bath that uses artificially heated water?
4) Tags should be applicable to more than one country if possible, and use British English, if possible. So, perhaps bath:type=foot_bath is better than a Japanese-specific word like ashiyu, if it works. But if an ashiyu is different than a regular foot_bath, then maybe a Japan-specific tag is needed. For an Onsen, you could use bath:type=hot_spring, but it looks like a Japanese bath:type=onsen is very different from a hot spring bath in other countries, so it's probably fine to just use "Onsen".
5) Re: "The OSM editor proposes only three choices of the public bath type for the type tag". The editor on openstreetmap.org is called "iD" and you can report an issue with it here: http://github.com/openstreetmap/iD - but there are also other popular editors: Vespucci for mobile phones and especially JOSM for advanced mappers. I don't see "amenity=public_bath" in JOSM, but you could open an issue and ask they it be supported, with a "preset" for the different types: https://josm.openstreetmap.de/newticket (after you discuss this with the community).

--Jeisenbe (talk) 00:58, 18 March 2020 (UTC)