Proposal:Takeaway drink shops

Tag:amenity=drinks
Proposal status:	Rejected (inactive)
Proposed by:	tntchn
Tagging:	`amenity=drinks`
Applies to:
Definition:	A place sells bubble tea, milk tea, milk, juice and other similar beverages.
Statistics:
Draft started:	2020-08-08
RFC start:	2020-08-08
Vote start:	2020-10-05
Vote end:	2020-10-19

Proposal

The tag amenity=drinks describe shops providing freshly made drinks e.g. coffee, tea, juice, and others, which usually don't have casual seats and service the customers with containers easy to takeaway.

Rationale

In present tagging method these kind of shops sell fresh drinks usually tagged as amenity=cafe with cuisine=* and takeaway=only, but in fact cafe is not suitable for those shops lacking of their own comfortable seats since the description indicates cafe is a place where people could spent more time to take a rest or do something else. Some other shop tagged with shop=beverages are also mismapped because this tag is more for beer market or beverage market which providing cans or bottles of drinks.

I previously made an old proposal [1] and found that it's better to make a new proposal which is flexible and containing all kind of these shop including roadside coffee shops, bubble tea shops, juice bar and others. Users would not be confused if they are just thirsty and want to buy something to drink in their cars or office.

Some of the shops much like shop=kiosk located in department stores or parks may also able to us this tag.

Examples

Tagging until now	Tagging with proposed tags	Example images
`shop=beverages` or `amenity=cafe` + `cuisine=bubble_tea` `takeaway=only` `drink:tea=yes` `drink:milk_tea=yes` `drink:bubble_tea=yes` `drink:juice=yes`	`name=漫渡拾光` `amenity=drinks` `cuisine=bubble_tea` `brand=漫渡拾光` - the name of the brand `branch=民族店` - the name of the branch `takeaway=only` `drink:tea=yes` `drink:milk_tea=yes` `drink:bubble_tea=yes` `drink:juice=yes`	A bubble tea shop located in Tainan, selling tea, milk tea (creamer/milk), juice tea with topping boba, coconut jelly, jelly and taro balls.
`amenity=fast_food` `cuisine=juice` `name=Smoothie King` `brand=Smoothie King`	`amenity=drinks` `cuisine=smoothie` `name=Smoothie King` `brand=Smoothie King`	Smoothie King, a American smoothie chain.
`amenity=cafe` `cuisine=coffee_shop` `takeaway=only`	`amenity=drinks` `cuisine=coffee_shop` `takeaway=only`	A small coffee shop which provides fresh coffee for customers taking out only.

Useful Combination

cuisine=*
- cuisine=bubble_tea
- cuisine=coffee_shop
- cuisine=milk
- cuisine=juice
- cuisine=smoothie
- cuisine=tea
brand=*

Rendering

This is a feasible icon uploaded by Keithonearth in the discussion page shop=bubble_tea but maybe it's better to add a hot drink cup beside the cup which made it unconfused.

Difference from amenity=cafe

A "café" or a "coffeehouse" are designated for customers staying longer time. According to Wikipedia: "a coffeehouse provides patrons with a place to congregate, talk, read, write, entertain one another, or pass the time", some of them providing comfortable seats, light snacks, Wi-Fi access, and power plug. Minimum charge can be seen is many modern café, which is different from basic drink shops.

Features/Pages affected

External discussions

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2020-June/053584.html - the previous comments of the bubble tea proposal.
Talk:Proposed_features/shop=bubble_tea - wiki discussion of the previous proposal
Juice
https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/7904

Comments

Please comment on the discussion page.

Voting

Voting closed

Voting on this proposal has been closed.

It was rejected with 15 votes for, 11 votes against and 2 abstentions.

Some users think amenity=cafe is enough compatible for tagging takeaway drink shops.

I oppose this proposal. while I would support a first class tag like amenity=bubble_tea, I do not think shop=beverages is suitable, nor would I generally see bubble tea as a “drink”, it rather could eventually be seen as a subtype of “pastry”, although this would probably lead to wrong expectations as well. To be actually useful the “here you can get some drinkable liquid to takeaway” information is not sufficient and you would have to see the subtype anyway, that’s why I would go directly for bubble_tea in the first level tag.—Dieterdreist (talk) 08:18, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
- In my first proposal I used bubble_tea as my first level tag, but after the discussions I found that it is not a systematically way to tag such things. The key point is to mark a place where you can buy something to drink, then 'cuisine' shows the main product of the shop. Besides, I still can have some coffee in some of the bubble tea shops. Use drink as the first level tag can reduce the confusion for the mappers. --tntchn ^talk 16:14, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
- Why wouldn't you consider bubble tea a drink? It's a liquid beverage. I have never heard anyone describe it as a pastry. Eneerhut (talk) 23:52, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- Apparently the "bubble" in bubble tea isn't the chewy tapioca balls (pearls) it's simply the air bubbles that form on top when you shake the drink with ice cubes, so a milk tea without any additions is still a bubble tea. It's a drink, it's consumed with a straw not a fork or spoon. Many places don't just serve bubble tea, they might do only juice or a juice smoothie (eg. Boost Juice) and this proposal encapsulates the wide range of mostly takeaway "ready to drink" retail outlets. --Aharvey (talk) 00:08, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
  - To me (Canadian English user from Ontario, although white) the bubble in bubble tea does indeed refer to the tapioca balls, but I definitely wouldn't consider the tapioca balls to make this drink a pastry. --Jarek Piórkowski (talk) 16:23, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
I oppose this proposal. I don't think that we should have coffee shops, bubble tea (boba/tapioca), juice bars and shops that sell smoothies all under the same tag. A smoothie is hardly similar to a hot coffee. Also, based on the current definition it's not clear whether or not this tag could be used for shops which sell alcoholic drinks: this is an important distinction. --Jeisenbe (talk) 14:34, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
- Same as above if we use bubble tea as the first level tag, then we still need to create more tags for juice bars and milk and any other beverages. I believe that there are more different type of beverages come from all around the world that is hard to list them all. So the proposal now is a better way to make them fittable. --tntchn ^talk 16:14, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
- In addition, I didn't mention the alcohol drinks in the proposal due to not familiar with what happening in other place. But I really believe that it could be a option at least in my hometown. Some shops add Heineken into green tea and they also sell bubble tea (of course under aged are prohibited). I think alcoholic drinks is acceptable if it is true that what they sell. --tntchn ^talk 16:14, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
- We don't have amenity=thai_restaurant and amenity=sushi_restaurant, we just have a top level amenity=restaurant + cuisine. The same should apply here a top level amenity=drinks + cuisine tag. Trends change and new variants are coming out all the time that make the distinction less clear so a simple top level drinks tag is ideal. --Aharvey (talk) 00:13, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
I have comments but abstain from voting on this proposal. I like this better than the cuisine-specific tag proposed earlier; a "drink amenity" is indeed a little more specific and accurate than a "cafe" or "kiosk" however I don't really see why the definition of shop=kiosk can't be expanded ever-so-slightly to involve fresh food/drink instead of just prepackaged goods, aside from the fact that it's listed as a "shop" instead of an "amenity". Given the existing amenity structure of restaurant/cafe/fast_food, I guess I'm also unclear why fast_food with something like seating=no couldn't be used. As you say many "food kiosks" in places like malls could use this, and I think regularly-placed food carts, street vendors and "hot dog stands" could make use of something like amenity=food_stand. It's sorta weird to me that we have biergarten and ice_cream amenities but get hung up on what is essentially a "cook shop" (the predecessor to restaurants, a kitchen with no seating.) If we do go with amenity=drinks, we'll also want something like amenity=fast_food seating=no to encompass those places which are ever so slightly more food-oriented than drink-oriented, and in my mind "food" covers beverages better than "drinks" covers food. (My favorite thing to do at a Boba place is to get fried chicken, after all.) --Zyphlar (talk) 21:21, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
In my opinion the type shop=kiosk is a lot of different with such kind of shop. There are many kiosk selling betel nuts, cigarette, and bottle water etc nearby my city. Kiosks in other place might sell other items from those I familiar, but most of that kind of shops usually only need one staff doing the checkout. I would not except to get some fresh things in those kind of shops. We could tag amenity=drinks+building=kiosk if there is a kiosk in the amusement park selling fresh drinks. Furthermore, it's not hard to distinguish whether a shop is food-oriented or drink-oriented. Residents can buy whatever they want in the shop for example I can only drink coke in a pizza stand or have some ice cream in a bubble tea shop if they provide. But if I go to a new place, I would like to search if there are some amenity=drinks when I am thirsty. --tntchn ^talk 04:30, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

I oppose this proposal. In my opinion a tagging like amenity=cafe (or any other fitting amenity tag) with takeaway=only is already fine and adding indoor_seating=no + outdoor_seating=no represents the desired feature without misunderstandings.

The amenity=cafe tag requires seating, it does not make sense to combine this with takeaway=only. —Dieterdreist (talk) 23:38, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

And I'm not overly happy with the "sit-down" part of the amenity=cafe definition and would intuitively not restrict cafes/coffehouses to places where you can sit. Germany has a concept of a "Stehcafe" (@Dieterdreist I know you know the concept but for those who don't: It literally translates to "standing coffehouse", a normal cafe/coffehouse (often within a bakery) but without seats because of legal reasons) and I also encountered very small normal coffeehouses, which simply didn't had seats due to their size. I would rather slightly change the amenity=cafe definition than to introduce a new tag for a situation we are already able to fully represent. --Hauke-stieler (talk) 23:53, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

While I am familiar with the Stehcafe concept, it clearly doesn’t fit under the amenity=cafe umbrella, according to established definitions. You may not like the current definition, but you will either have to accept it or propose to change it (very unlikely for a tag with so many instances to change definition).—Dieterdreist (talk) 12:38, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

I would rather change the cafe definition than introducting a new tag like this one proposed here (that's why I oppose it). If we say a cafe is an "informal place, usually with sit-down facilities, selling beverages ..." then we wouldn't run into problems, because we extend the definition, not restrict it. But I think this is content for a complete new discussion and proposal :D --Hauke-stieler (talk) 16:01, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Yeah how many drive-thru-only Starbucks and Dutch Bros' in America are tagged as cafes? I think the idea of light drink and food is covered by the concept of cafe unless as I said above we move towards some idea of cook-shop / food stand / drink stand / food kiosk Zyphlar (talk) 16:07, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

"Sit down" is a general standard of a cafe, but there are still some other definition that may make the "Sethcafe" more like a "cafe" for instance people may meeting chatting or relaxing there. There is a standing BBQ in Korea that people still tag it as amenity=restaurant. --tntchn ^talk 04:56, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

I approve this proposal. In my experience there is definitely a type of establishment that primarily serves various novelty teas, smoothies, juices... and sometimes as an afterthought, normal tea, coffee, small snacks. I've seen a lot of confusion about how to tag these places, and even some mini edit wars between amenity=cafe and amenity=fast_food... with amenity=bar, amenity=teahouse, or shop=beverages occasionally thrown into the mix. I think amenity=drinks would fill this gap. (However I would *not* say amenity=drinks can't have seating. Nor do I believe that amenity=cafe 100% requires seating.) --Jmapb (talk) 02:16, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
I oppose this proposal. As Jmapb wrote: There might be use cases for a new amenity=drinks, but distinguishing by available seating options and hence ripping apart existing tags like amenity=cafe and similar is not the right definition. --Mueschel (talk) 11:36, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

I don't want to rip the cafe tag all along. I believe that the definition of cafe do not have a consensus in the present community. That's why some people would think that it's weird cuisine=donut and cuisine=bagel go with cafe. Someone are unsatisfied with using seats to confirm whether a place is cafe or not. How about to use the ability of staying more or less than 30 minutes of a place, although I think it's not a clear depiction. --tntchn ^talk 09:44, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

I oppose this proposal. If it's a shop, it should be shop=drinks --Kjon (talk) 14:38, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- Pretty much all of the existing shop=* values are for pre-made products that you can buy off the shelf, if the bubble tea is premade in a can and you just pick it off the shelf, then shop=drinks would be best, but for made to order drinks it's more in line with the existing fast_food, cafe, restaurant tags all under amenity=* --Aharvey (talk) 00:18, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
I approve this proposal. I was looking forward for such a tag since the exiting ones like cafe or kiosk not really describe this kind of "to go situation". Especially in Asia with the high density of restauarnts, bars, cafes, food stands etc. it is necessary to clearly distinguish this type of drink shop. People there are searching especially for bubble tea shops or even little coffee roasteries with no seating which not belong to a big chain. Mostly those shops don't have any space for chairs and tables (e.g. they are directly at the sidewalk and would block everything) – so also people looking for a cafe with the opportunity to rest are disappointed when they find such a small shop. --Interactiondesigner (talk) 16:15, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
I oppose this proposal. should not be in the amenity section FreeExec (talk) 16:19, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
I approve this proposal. This fills a gap in existing tagging, and much preferred to have a high level drinks tag than "bubble tea" at the top level, since many places don't just serve bubble tea, or no bubble tea at all. --Aharvey (talk) 23:12, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
I approve this proposal. This tag is ideal for ready-made juice stores that I know in my area, and there is no tag that matches, since it is not beverage or cafe.--AgusQui (talk) 23:30, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
I approve this proposal. This is very common establishment in Asia and I agree that this tag is more appropriate than the amenity=cafe or others.--Yantisa (talk) 03:23, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
I approve this proposal. --Mishari (talk) 03:46, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
I approve this proposal. The lack of an appropriate tag here became apparent to me recently when trying to map a takeaway juice place. I agree with the proposal that bubble tea shops are a similar scenario. No one I know refers to a juice shop or bubble tea place as a cafe, so I disagree with tagging them under that category and support this proposal. --Eneerhut (talk) 06:37, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
I oppose this proposal. There is no single place where we use the amenity key for shops. OSM already suffers from inconsistency all over the place. So no, these shops are not amenities! --giggls (talk) 08:57, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
- in fact there is: a "coffeeshop" is amenity=cafe + cuisine=coffee_shop in OSM, and this is as much of a shop as a coffeeshop: in name only --Jarek Piórkowski (talk) 16:12, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
- Some other amenities with shop in the name: Rum shop, dram shop (both amenity=bar/pub) and ice cream shop (usually tagged as amenity=ice_cream but often mis-tagged as shop=ice_cream, which should be reserved for a shop selling packaged ice cream.)
I approve this proposal. --EneaSuper (talk) 11:08, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
I approve this proposal. Finally a solution for all the tea, bubble tea and juice shops --5R-MFT (The comment was left on 11:43, 12 October 2020 UTC)
I approve this proposal. I find this proposal to be self-consistent and to address a weakness in the current tagging scheme. I am satisfied with it and I'm not going to get hung up on details wanting to get it perfect.
- I am satisfied with arguments that this should not be a cafe sub-tag, because I find there is no community consensus about what a cafe is:
  - Some editors think that amenity=cafe should be strictly reserved for places where you can sit down, as per the original British English definition of a cafe. Some editors further limit it to only establishments that serve cooked hot food.
  - Some editors think that amenity=cafe is suitable for any coffee- or generally liquid-related places, including drive-through only stands, Stehcafes, or walk-up espresso bars
  - These two positions are obviously not reconcilable and if put forward as a proposal today there would be no consensus, but exist as a historical artifact, and the only things we can do is propose ways to work around them
- I don't think this should be a shop=* tag. I am not aware of any shop=* tags describe locations that prepare food or drink custom to customer's order. The name "bubble tea shop" is not relevant here any more than for a "coffee shop".
- I don't think there we should use specific top-level tags like amenity=bubble_tea. This way, when a new trend like "cold pressed juice" or "detox kefir" or "ayran but with herbs for yuppies" comes out next year, we don't need a new top-level proposal for amenity=cold_pressed_juice_stand and data consumers don't need to add a new top-level tag to interpret.
- --Jarek Piórkowski (talk) 16:12, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
I approve this proposal.nyampire (talk) --Nyampire (talk) 02:49, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
I oppose this proposal. I prefer to tag such places as amenity=cafe or amenity=fast_food + takeaway=only + cuisine=juice (/smoothie/bubble_tea). For me, a café is a place where I can buy freshly made drinks. A place which sells drinks only takeway it's still a café.

amenity=cafe + takeaway=no is ok,

amenity=cafe + takeaway=yes is ok,

but amenity=cafe + takeaway=only = amenity=drinks?

Many people go to normal cafés to take a drink/coffee/tea away and go. I don't think we need a new tag for "cafes with no seats".

We don't have a separate tag for fast food facilities selling food only takeaway. We have a tag takeaway=only.

Proposal:Takeaway drink shops

Contents

Proposal

Rationale

Examples

Useful Combination

Rendering

Difference from amenity=cafe

Features/Pages affected

External discussions

Comments

Voting

Navigation menu

Proposal:Takeaway drink shops

Proposal

Rationale

Examples

Useful Combination

Rendering

Difference from amenity=cafe

Features/Pages affected

External discussions

Comments

Voting

Navigation menu

Search