Proposed features/couloir 2

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Corbet's Couloir in jackson hole
Couloir
Status: Rejected (inactive)
Proposed by: Futur3r
Tagging: natural=couloir
Statistics:

Drafted on: 2021-02-03
RFC start: 2021-02-03
Vote start: 2021-02-18
Vote end: 2021-03-04

Intro

A couloir may be a seam, scar, or fissure, or vertical crevasse in an otherwise solid mountain mass. Though often hemmed in by sheer cliff walls, couloirs may also be less well-defined, and often simply a line of broken talus or scree ascending the mountainside and bordered by trees or other natural features. Couloirs are especially significant in winter months when they may be filled in with snow or ice, and become much more noticeable than in warmer months when most of the snow and ice may recede. These physical features make the use of couloirs popular for both mountaineering and skiing.

Rationale

This is a second proposal of Proposed_features/couloir. This last proposal was rejected because there was not enough voters. A couloir is an important part of mountain topology, wildly use in mountaineering, basic orientation in mountainous terrain or just common knowledge.

This is strictly a linear feature placed on a way.

Because of the unavailability of the tag, some very important couloir in the Mont-Blanc for example have been tagged different ways :

Tagging

  • natural=couloir
  • name=*
  • direction=* - For the direction the couloir is facing.
  • incline=* - For the maximum inclination of the couloir in degrees (e.g incline=55°).
  • ele=* - Placed on the top and bottom node for maximum and minimum known elevation.

This way should be traced following the middle of the couloir.

Differences

Gorge du Fier
The way number 4 and 7 pass by mostly visible gullies in the cliff and on the rightmost side of the image there is a couloir

From a valley

A valley is way more wide (hundreds of meters or even kilometers wider), it has multiple ridges and summit and have been made by rivers and big glacier in the last ice age.

Couloir can be on the side of valley in the side of steep mountains.

see this duckduck go search for different images examples.

From a gorge

A gorge is a vertical and narrow crevasse made by a river or any other strong water flow. They are mostly in valleys and not "part of a cliff" (see the "gorge du Fier" for example).

From a gully

A gully is a small scale land form (a meters to a few tens of meters) incised into surrounding terrain through erosion by flowing water. Also they are applicable to most terrain (hill, flat land, mountains), but Couloir are specifically found on mountainous relief, especially on mountainous terrain.

A couloir can be 1000 meters long and they can be from a few meters to a few hundreds of meters wide. They are usually very steep and exposed to danger. Also, they are not seen as barriers (as a gully can be), but more as way to ascent or descent a mountain.

There are gully on mountainous terrain but these are cracks in a cliff that are only a few meters wide. A couloir can end in a gully or multiple gullies.

Voting

Voting closed

Voting on this proposal has been closed.

It was rejected with 15 votes for, 9 votes against and 2 abstentions.


  • I approve this proposal I approve this proposal. --Futur3r (talk) 19:38, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
  • I oppose this proposal I oppose this proposal. During the RFC asked that this tag be clearly defined. The tag needs to have a clear definition which explains how it is different from natural=gorge, natural=gully or natural=valley. Now the page still lacks a short definition or description statement. This is a serious problem. The distinction from natural=gully and natural=valley is still not very clear. --Jeisenbe (talk) 19:55, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
  • I oppose this proposal I oppose this proposal. I am not a mountaineer of any description, but I thought from the discussions on the tagging list that I understood what a "Couloir" is. Then I read the proposal again and looked, in particular, at the pictures showing the difference between a couloir and a gully. Now I am even more confused. --PeterPan99 (talk) 09:14, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
  • I approve this proposal I approve this proposal. I am a mountainer and caver. --Pyrog (talk) 09:36, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
  • I abstain from voting but have comments I have comments but abstain from voting on this proposal. As much as I wished for a tag to describe "hollow" forms, in contrast to "full" forms (arete, ridge) in mountainous terrain, having an eye towards being renderable, to make the standard map look more lively in these regions and also a better means of orientation, I cannot approve this proposal.
I might approve of "chute", which is of French origin too:
Description: A steep gully in mountainous terrain, bound by rocks on either side, filled with scree or bare rock with scant vegetation; more prominent in winter, when filled with snow. In places also called a "couloir".
Distinction: A subset of gully in its colloquial and geological usage. Not a product of fluvial erosion, cf canyon/gorge/ravine/etc. Smaller than a valley. Wider than a crevice. Bigger than a dihedral/chimney/crack etc.
Sources: https://avalanche.org/avalanche-encyclopedia/couloir/ https://climber.org/data/glossary.html --Hungerburg (talk) 09:50, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
  • I oppose this proposal I oppose this proposal. This proposal is at the moment too specialistic. There is no clear demarcation from similar, more generic tags --voschix (talk) 11:23, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
  • I approve this proposal I approve this proposal. I think this will add some nice detail to the map and will be like ridges. Although, I would like to know your thoughts on how this should be rendered. --BubbaJuice (talk) 19:21, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
  • I approve this proposal I approve this proposal. --Something B (talk) 21:28, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
  • I oppose this proposal I oppose this proposal. The proposed tagging lacks clearly defined criteria to distinguish couloirs from gulleys. The lack of adoption in the years since the original proposal suggests that gulley tagging is sufficient for these features, particularly if the only distinction is size. I would be willing to change my vote in a future round if clear distinguishing criteria were developed. --ZeLonewolf (talk) 00:31, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
  • I oppose this proposal I oppose this proposal. As someone interested in hiking and mapping and mountains, without geology degree: after reading this proposal and visiting place where this tagging would be useful yesterday it is completely unclear to me which elements would be taggable with it. Note that I am not expecting clear definition of difference between valley and couloir because it is not existing. But there should be some useful hint for differentiating it. Also, it is unclear to me which elements are too small to qualify For start, I would expect my questions from talk page to be answered. Tagging like this must be usable by nonexperts and people not familiar with terms in languages unknown to them. Note that badly defined tag will not become well-defined just because it passed proposal, data quality will be problematic here.Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 07:53, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
  • I oppose this proposal I oppose this proposal. thank you for working on this topic but there are too many unresolved points (on the tagging list and on the discussion page), the wording needs to be improved before voting Marc marc (talk) 09:26, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
  • I approve this proposal I approve this proposal. As a mountain praticant it would be very usefull for me to have this information in OSM. As said "gully", "coiloir" and "valley" are mountain terms, not mathematics/scientific terms. So we'll never have a perfectly clear definition. But a valley is usually made by glacier or river, is wide and long, a gully is much more narrow than a couloir and as an alpinism most of the time not skiable, but only with ice peak, crampons and rope. A gully can be the difficult end of a couloir for exemple. --Babouche Verte (talk) 07:40, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
  • I abstain from voting but have comments I have comments but abstain from voting on this proposal. It seems like a couloir could be tagged as a gully, which it is, and couloir would be in the name --Bradrh (talk) 03:26, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
You are a native speaker? Would the article on gully have to be adapted? In couloirs, flowing water is not the only driver of erosion. E.g. rockfall, coming from the sides, but also from within, happens all the time, not just when it rains. --Hungerburg (talk) 09:25, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
Not a French speaker :), but I'm a native American English speaker. Yes, the gully article seems to have a very narrow definition of gully & should be modified. It could be a pretty simple, minor change. My comment is coming from the fact that every definition of couloir mentions gulley, and it seems that every couloir has the word couloir in the name. Here are 2 semi-local (to me) articles: A couloir is a steep, narrow gully ... ... deep, often steep gullies ... Bradrh (talk) 17:32, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
  • I approve this proposal I approve this proposal. --DBigg (talk) 12:57, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
  • I approve this proposal I approve this proposal. --EneaSuper (talk) 14:23, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
  • I approve this proposal I approve this proposal. I approve this proposal although I agree with many of the arguments given in the opposing votes. I do however understand from the proposal that it is such a significant and distinct feature, especially in mountaineering, that it needs it's place among the other mountain feature tagging, and that the confusion should be improved or clarified in a separate proposal targetting all existing mountain tags. It deserves it's place so it isn't forgotten. In any doubt, referring to the name which might contain the word couloir is for me sufficient, as a non-specialist, to map and tag it as a couloir instead of a gully.--Bert Araali (talk) 15:31, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
  • I approve this proposal I approve this proposal. --Reino Baptista (talk) 16:05, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
  • I approve this proposal I approve this proposal. --Pepilepioux (talk) 16:44, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
  • I approve this proposal I approve this proposal. --Ralley (talk) 18:55, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
  • I approve this proposal I approve this proposal. --Maxbe (talk) 06:57, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
  • I oppose this proposal I oppose this proposal. According to Wikipedia, "a couloir is a narrow gully" and I'm still not sure I understand the significance of the difference between then. This seems like a very specialised tag that should be tagged natural=gully + gully=couloir instead. --Riiga (talk) 08:05, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
  • I approve this proposal I approve this proposal. --Carnildo (talk) 09:21, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
  • I approve this proposal I approve this proposal. --Rabeyroux (talk) 14:11, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
  • I oppose this proposal I oppose this proposal. for the lack of clarity. It seems by the current definition, it could be tagged when the word "couloir" is in the name, but if it is a geologic feature, it could probably be tagged in any similar kind of mountain as the European Alps. The proposal currently still does not provide a comprehensive definition, nor does it seem the distinction to other features (during the discussion it was mentioned that couloirs are a subtype of gully) is completely clear from the description. --Dieterdreist (talk) 17:13, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
  • I oppose this proposal I oppose this proposal. I am not a supporter of describing the relief. But this sentence is so specific that its definition to the presence of a type in a name. I think that the place=locality is enough. --FreeExec (talk) 07:53, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
  • I approve this proposal I approve this proposal. --R2d (talk) 13:54, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

Related proposals

See also