Talk:Key:advertising

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perimeter

I would add advertising=perimeter. Could be useful in stadiums, racetracks,.... for example: Images --Hedaja 12:34, 24 August 2015

I think it's a good idea --Dlareg (talk) 07:46, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Adopt Existing Standards and Lexicon

The outdoor advertising industry, the sign manufacturers, urban planning community, and especially the visual pollution watchdogs have already established an extensive number of taxonomies, lexicons, terminology, etc. which describe every aspect of 'Street Graphics' ( of which advertising is only one category, and a fuzzy one at that ). It might seem overkill now, but every other tagging scheme in OSM has evolved in a haphazard manner as people want to add progressively more refinement. A well done hierarchy would allow simple high level task and leave lower levels for those that want the detail. It would also give the data some value to those outside communities because there would be a higher probability there was standard meanings that somewhat matched what the real world uses.

Michael Patrick


interesting. Can you give some examples, or even a (structured?) comprehensive list how you think it should be done? --Dieterdreist (talk) 08:11, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

Use on relation?

The page says that this key could be used on relations. What relation (except multipolygon) it could be used on? Chrabroš (talk) 07:17, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

IMHO, multipolygons would be unlikely. The most probable for surfaces would occur on a small building, which will be simple polygons most of the time. Large buildings are typically not used themselves for advertizing, but only for offices (of an advertizing company, not using this "advertizing=*" tag meant for describing the support, but "office=advertizing").
However a long wall/barrier could be used as support, where a relation (not a multipolygon area) could eventually appear if it becomes segmented and one needs to keep the group of segments for the same single advertizing support.
The most probable use is for a big sculpture-like object, modeled in 3D with some relation (not necessarily a multipolygon used for a single surface).
THe use of relations to collect various advertizing places in some unbound area is undesired. — Verdy_p (talk) 14:23, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Proposal for "tree" type

While attempting to add an advertising structure today, I came across what is known as a "tree" structure. It's essentially a billboard attached to a large stem that is connected to the pavement / road. The stem is known as a trunk (so advertising:support=trunk is the suggested tagging approach).

Example: http://www.jcdecaux.ie/our-advertising-formats/metro-formats/metropoles/ (example from Mapillary).

--Dónal (talk) 13:27, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

You can use directly support=trunk which was already used 280 times according to Taginfo. --PanierAvide (talk) 13:40, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
To clarify: Suggestion is to use advertising=billboard and support=trunk for such infrastructure? --Dónal (talk) 15:05, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
Exactly ;-) --PanierAvide (talk) 16:07, 25 August 2017 (UTC)


Which language are you referring to? Or are these called tree in English? The support looks like the well known "pole" to me. --Dieterdreist (talk) 12:18, 1 September 2017 (UTC)
Seeing the support=* examples, I think the distinction is a matter of support width: few centimers = post, ~10/20 centimers = pole, 30+ centimeters = trunk. --PanierAvide (talk) 12:33, 1 September 2017 (UTC)
Those are simply examples. If you search for pictures of "advertising trunk" with a search engine, you won't find anything suitable to confirm this is a combination used in English to describe an advertising support (at least I couldn't find any), on the other hand, searching for "advertising pole" shows lots of square poles and bigger poles that seem to be what you want to tag. Bigger ones are also called "mast". "Trunk" doesn't seem to make sense in English, this is confirmed both, by the image search and by looking in a dictionary: [1] --Dieterdreist (talk) 14:05, 1 September 2017 (UTC)
Yes I believe now that 'support=trunk' can be removed, and we can only keep 'support=pole' to indicate there is a unique (and likely large big) pole to support the advertising device, while 'support=poles' means there are two poles and in that case they are implicitly smaller in diameter. Barnes38 (talk) 16:00, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

Ambiguity of some tags

I'm new to OSM, and I'm doing a very detailed Mapcontrib template (in french) to ease the contribution of advertising devices from people outside OSM world, and I've some issues to understand correctly how to categorize some of them.

trunk or pole?

In Tag:advertising=billboard support=trunk is suggested for one pole grounded advertising billboard (example from Mapillary), but it is not present on the JOSM preset, nor on the Key:support page.

Depending on local OSM communities, it seems that people are using support=pole or support=trunk, for the same kind of billboards, but the second one seems less used.

Am I missing something or there is no consensus on that kind of billboard? Should we use pole/poles or trunk/poles or trunk/pole to describe the support?

It is the same discussion above with Dieterdreist (talk) and Dónal (talk), but it seems to converge to use pole instead of trunk. If we agree on that, shouldn't we remove all trunk references on the wiki and edit the nodes which use it? --Show0k (talk) 14:33, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

When I worked on this 'advertising' tag, I hesitated between 'pole' and 'trunk'. 'Pole' is correct, but very often there is one single huge and large pole, more like a trunk, and 'trunk' appeared to be more descriptive. Advertising companies says it is an 'advertising tree' (of course green washing) and therefore the analogy with a trunk could be correct. I adopted for a while this 'trunk' value, but at the end there was no consensus on it, and it was removed. I think we should distinguish at least between 'pole' and 'poles', 'pole' (singular) meaning a single pole (often with the idea of a trunk), while 'poles' (plural) meaning two poles, often smaller in diameter. I think we could agree on the two values 'pole/poles' and could let 'trunk' disappear.

Barnes38 (talk) 14:53, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

I must admit it does not matter much to me. I would agree with Barnes38 that a single big support like in the example situation, could be distinguished from a pole, which I would expect to be round and smaller. These are very specific details anyway, so any value that is used in higher numbers will probably be evaluated by people caring for this. --Dieterdreist (talk) 22:28, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

lit or luminous?

In the JOSM preset, all entries have *lit* AND *luminous* keys, but on the wiki all examples have only lit OR luminous. Does it really mean anything to have both keys at the same time? If it's a mistake, we should probably make it clearer as many people (including me) used both on the same node. --Show0k (talk) 14:33, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

'Lit' and 'luminous' have different meaning. 'Lit' means it is lit from outside, by an external devices, often spots or neon ramps and these lightning devices are disposed onto the advertising devices, they lit the advertising device "by reflexion" from outside. 'Luminous' means it is lit from the inside, there are no external devices, they lit the advertising device "by transmission".
'Lit' lightning devices consumes more energy than the 'luminous' lightning devices, (generally speaking I have no data to prove that).
Then I believe it is very interesting to keep these two possibilities : 'lit' and 'luminous'. Poster boxes are almost always 'luminous', while advertising billboards are sometimes 'lit' and sometimes 'luminous'.
Having said that we can consider your question : if we want to be able to precise more on the 'lit' attribute for example what is the source of light (spots, neon ramps, ...) and if if we want to be able to precise how it is luminous (a screen is 'luminous', a 'neon' is luminous, a poster box is luminous, ...) then I believe it is interesting to keep both keys, because each key brings its own characteristics, and even if both 'lit' and 'luminous' won't be set on the same advertising device. Barnes38 (talk) 15:07, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
Thanks for clarifying the definition. That's what I thought when I wrote the question, but I will edit the documentation to make it clearer. Hovewer, as you said a poster box is often luminous but never lit, but in the JOSM preset you wrote, it is lit=on and luminous=on by default, that's what confused me. --Show0k (talk) 15:49, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
This is a small bug, good catch Barnes38 (talk) 15:57, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

animated=screen vs adverting=screen

There is a advertising=screen tag entry, which is used (Overpass link), but also the animated=screen (Overpass link). If the community agree that it should be a dedicated value to advertising key, shouldn't we remove the animated=screen on the wiki which is confusing (and edit all the entries which use it)? --Show0k (talk) 14:33, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

When I worked on 'advertising' tag, the 'screen' advertising tag value already existed, while the 'screen' animated tag value didn't existed. I believe that a 'screen' advertising tag value should be transformed into : 'advertising=billboard + animated=screen' or 'advertising=poster_box + animated=screen' or 'advertising=board + animated=screen'. As a matter of fact, it is more precise: we have first a billboard (or a poster_box, or a board), and then a description on how is this device: this device is animated with a 'screen'. It provides more information than saying 'advertising=screen'. At the time I worked on 'advertising' tag, I didn't want to propose the suppression of 'advertising=screen', because I was afraid of the changes and the reaction of contributors, but I estimate this would be what is to be done. Barnes38 (talk) 15:16, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
I agree with you, I also thought it has more sense to use 'advertising=billboard + animated=screen' and was surprised you put it in the advertising key draft proposal. The issue right know is that advertising=screen is not documented, but in the other hand animated=screen is not very visible and you are the author of half of it's nodes. I have no idea how decisions are taken on OSM ; maybe we could edit the advertising=screen page to suggest to use 'advertising=poster_box + animated=screen' or 'advertising=board + animated=screen' instead? --Show0k (talk) 16:16, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
We can discuss it on french list 'osm talk fr' first, if you launch the discussion I ll make my contribution. Depending on the result of the discussion, we need to discuss it on mailing list 'tagging' (more international). Then depending on results we can document on wiki and then fix the nodes in one way or another. Being on my own to do all that prevented me to do things perfectly, but it is not too late to try to do it better now together. Barnes38 (talk) 19:33, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

advertising=sign vs wall supported billboard

Big wall supported advertising devices are very common in France, but few of them are in OSM. There is very few entries with ["advertising"="billboard"]["support"="wall"] (Overpass link), and even fewer with ["advertising"="sign"] (Overpass link).

I have myself contributed on quite a lot of ["advertising"="billboard"]["support"="wall"]. This case is very common in France as you said, and there are specific rules in french "Code de l'Environnement : réglementation nationale sur la publicité extérieure" for wall advertising billboards ("panneaux publicitaires muraux"). They don't have the same constraints than the 'grounded advertising billboards' ("panneaux publicitaires scellés au sol"). That's why it is quite important to be able to distinguish these two 'support' values. Barnes38 (talk) 15:54, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

If I understand the documentation, if a board advertise the activity of the building, it's a sign, otherwise it should be a wall supported billboard?

There are several notions here and not so easy to understand.
A sign generally speaking is rather what is set on the building itself to tell the name (and type) of the activity taking place inside. It often does not have the form factor of a 'board', nor the form factor of a 'billboard'. Very often a 'sign' is the brand name written in big letters, at the top of the building, but it can be set on the façade of the building. Sometimes if is only a bit letter : M for MacDonnalds for example. Sometimes if is only a shape (a green cross for 'pharmacie' in France). A sign can be 'luminous' (neon sign) or not, it can be 'lit' or not, it can be 'animated' (blinking for example for the 'pharmacie' in France) or not, etc.
But added to these very common 'signs', there are as well the french meaning of 'sign' : "enseigne". If you speak french you can read https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/FR:Key:legal_type which explains the differences between a 'sign' and an 'advertising'. Exactly same device (with same form factor) can be an 'advertising' if it is far from the place where the activity advertized takes place, and can be a 'sign' if is is close from the place when the activity advertized takes place. That's why I introduced "FR:legal_type". French rules into "Code de l'Environnement : réglementation nationale sur la publicité extérieure" for 'sign' and 'advertising' are very different, and that's why is is quite important to be able to distinguish them with "FR:legal_type". Barnes38 (talk) 15:55, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

The documentation of Tag:advertising=sign has no examples, and it seems that some OSM communities are using that tag to describe every signs which refers to the name of the building.

When I worked on 'advertising' tag, I did't work much on 'sign' because it is something different from the 'advertisings devices' and it was too much work. The 'advertising' tag is more to describe the general aspect of the device, to give its form factor, not to say the device is on the building or not. So I think we should keep 'advertising=sign' for device which are on the top of a building, or on a façade of a building, made with letters or shapes giving the brand name, or owner name, and that's it. If ever there is billboard on a facade of a building, we should say 'advertising=billboard' for example (and use for french "FR:legal_type=enseigne" to say it is an "enseigne". Barnes38 (talk) 15:55, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

Examples from Mapillary:

--Show0k (talk) 14:33, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

message=map vs message=map_information

The first one is described on the wiki page Key:message and the second one on the JOSM preset. Is it a mistake on the JOSM preset? --Show0k (talk) 07:44, 28 February 2019 (UTC)