Proposed features/Tag:man made=lamp

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Lamps
Status: Abandoned (inactive)
Proposed by: MHohmann
Tagging: man_made=lamp
Applies to: node
Definition: Location of a lamp.
Rendered as: Lamp symbol.
Drafted on: 2010-11-10
RFC start: 2010-11-10
Vote start: 2013-11-09
Vote end: 2013-11-23

Note that this proposal has been abandoned in favour of a new, improved tagging scheme which is designed to fix minor inconsistencies and problems in this proposal.

Description

A lamp, which may be a street lamp, a floodlight, a signal lamp or any other type of lamp.

Motivation

Lamps are easily visible landmarks and therefore very helpful to find one's way at night. Besides that, the location of lamps helps to judge how good the lighting of a lit highway is, so one can easily avoid dark spots or poorly lit highways on a nightly walk. Further, this information is of statistical significance and answers questions like: "How many (street) lamps are in a certain residential area? What is their average distance? What is the estimated light pollution caused by these lamps?"

This proposal allows distinguishing different types of lamps, such as street lamps, floodlights, signal lamps marking the position of something etc. It does not apply to traffic lights, railway signals, screens (such as for advertisements) etc.

Additional tagging allows differentiation between different lamp types (electric, gas), colours, electrical power, direction of light emission etc. The need for this can also be seen in the tagging scheme for gas lamps in Düsseldorf, which should be generalized and unified to a global tagging scheme.

Tagging

Recommended / optional combinations

Combination with existing / general tags

  • operator=* - Which company operates this lamp?
  • ref=* - What is the reference number of this lamp?
  • height=* - What is the height of the overall construction? Use lamp:height=* for the height in which the lamp is mounted.
  • colour=* - What is the colour of the overall construction? For the colour of the light, use lamp:colour=*.
  • support=* - How is the lamp mounted? This replaces the previously used lamp_mount=* and unifies the tagging with amenity=clock.
    • support=pole - The lamp is mounted on a pole (common for street lamps and floodlights).
    • support=wire - The lamp is hanging from a wire (also used for street lamps, the wire often crosses the street).
    • support=wall_mounted - The lamp is mounted on a wall (common for lighting at industrial buildings).
    • support=ground - The lamp is standing on the ground (common for floodlights directed upwards at buildings).
    • support= - Other support structures similar to amenity=clock.

Examples

Litpath.jpg

+

Newandoldstreetlights.jpg

Na-light.jpg

Straßenlaterne.JPG

Gas lamp in Rathenow.jpg

Floodlights.jpg

Plq-runway.jpg

AircraftWarningLightChangzhou.jpg

Seaman send Morse code signals.jpg

Affected features / tags

highway=street_lamp
To be gradually replaced by the more general man_made=lamp, lamp:type=street_lamp. (No automated mass edits!) Data users should be aware that both tagging variants will co-exist for at least a limited period of time, until the new tagging scheme has been fully established.
lamp_mount=*
To be replaced by support=*.
lit=yes
This tag remains unchanged; its information is simply enhanced by the exact location of lamps.
lit=sunset-sunrise
The values sunset and sunrise, which have been taken from opening_hours=*, should be enhanced by the new values dusk and dawn, since street lamps (and other light sources) are usually not switched exactly at sunset / sunrise, but some time during dusk / dawn. The values sunset / sunrise should be used only for exact times corresponding to sunset / sunrise, while dusk / dawn should be used if the switching occurs during some not exactly specified time during dusk / dawn.

Some special tags for gas lamps are in use in Düsseldorf. These should also gradually be replaced as follows:

lamp_type=gaslight
To be replaced by lamp:light=gas.
lamp_flames=*
To be replaced by lamp:flames=*.
lamp_model=*
To be replaced by street_lamp=*.
lamp_operator=*
To be replaced by operator=*. It should be clear from the tag man_made=lamp that the operator applies to this lamp.
lamp_ref_swd=*
To be replaced by ref=*. It should be clear from the tag man_made=lamp that the ref applies to this lamp.

These changes should be implemented in maps which make use of the affected tags and editors. Tagging presets for JOSM will be provided as soon as the tagging has been agreed upon.

Rendering

Lamp symbol/different lamp symbols for different lamp types (not part of this proposal).

Comments

Please use the discussion page for comments.

Voting

Voting has been started again after implementing new improvements for this proposal. The votes from the first attempt have been collected here.

Add your vote here with a comment in case of opposition (or even in case of acceptance :) ). If you have already voted in the first vote attempt, please vote again.

Use either {{vote|yes}} or {{vote|no}} for your vote together with a comment, if you feel like it. Please sign your vote with your OSM name: --~~~~ .

  • I approve this proposal I approve this proposal. A comprehensive and crystal-clear tagging. I like it. Although most of the values will be rarely known and therefore added. Ocirne94 (talk) 12:18, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
  • I approve this proposal I approve this proposal. Very nice work ! Fanfouer (talk) 14:06, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
  • I approve this proposal I approve this proposal. Very well designed proposal, I totally support it! --Nadjita (talk) 15:05, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
  • I approve this proposal I approve this proposal. Has a lot of useful and well thought-out tags. Regarding street_lamp: "Shortcuts" don't really save time because you copy the first lamp instead of typing the same tags over and over. --Tordanik 10:42, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
It is true for people mapping street lamps on large scale, not for people that sometimes add one Bulwersator (talk) 17:49, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
If it's correctly implemented by the editor as a tagging preset, both is just a single click - even for people that just add one lamp. And even they could just copy an existing one - street lamps are usually not "lonely" objects, but there are more of them close to each other. MHohmann (talk) 18:32, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
OSM is already overcomplicated, making it more complicated and hoping that magic editors will fix problem is a poor idea Bulwersator (talk) 19:02, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
Hoping is always a bad idea, that's why I wrote implementing and do not rely on magic. As I wrote, tagging presets for JOSM will be provided. Differentiating between more objects of course requires more evolved tagging, that's common practice in OSM. MHohmann (talk) 19:27, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
What about newbies using edit button on openstreetmap.org? Bulwersator (talk) 21:48, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
Of course it needs to be implemented in all editors. MHohmann (talk) 21:58, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
  • I approve this proposal I approve this proposal. Even if I'm not sure if lamp is better term then light, I didn't pay to much attention to it. Nobody says that there need to be a migration from highway=streetlamp as both features can exist in parallel. But now, IF I like, I can be more specific and we have a well designed more general schema. This will help me a lot to do better micromapping esp. for 3D. --!i! This user is member of the wiki team of OSM 20:05, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
  • I approve this proposal I approve this proposal. --Michi (talk) 20:29, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
  • I approve this proposal I approve this proposal. --Farad (talk) 23:11, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
  • I approve this proposal I approve this proposal. --rayquaza (talk) 01:14, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
  • I approve this proposal I approve this proposal. Nice work! Too many lamps, that weren't street lamps. --Jimmy K (talk) 06:30, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
  • I approve this proposal I approve this proposal. Nice, enables better micromapping! Many well thought out ideas --Peda (talk) 11:13, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
  • I approve this proposal I approve this proposal. Nice work, I like this proposal --Max333 (talk) 15:25, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
  • I approve this proposal I approve this proposal. Will work fine using presets --Osmonav 18:32, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
  • I approve this proposal I approve this proposal. --Lovwyr (talk) 22:02, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
  • I approve this proposal I approve this proposal.--Zuse (talk) 08:15, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
  • I approve this proposal I approve this proposal. Very nice work !--Geri-oc (talk) 09:29, 21 November 2013 (UTC)


  • I partly approve this proposal. It seems that this proposal is going to be voted down, but I think that the proposed tags will be used anyway, and that they will continue evolving. Particularly the lamp:type definitions seem incomplete. Are lamps lighting a railway station to be tagged as lamp:type=street_lamp? Why have the word "lamp" both in the key and in the value? What about the myriads of lights on industrial facilities such as refineries? Concerning highway=street_lamp: This olde tag is purely illogical because a lamp is not a highway. We also switched from building=entrance to entrance=* because an entrance is not a building. On the other hand, deprecating a tag with >200k uses is a no-go. The plan to "gradually replace" them without mass edits seems hypocritical. Redefining highway=street_lamp as a shortcut looks like a reasonable compromise. As a Merkaartor user, I appreciate shortcuts because I use to type all of the tags myself. --Fkv (talk) 22:01, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
  • I oppose this proposal I oppose this proposal. Already a tag in general use that covers these features Pnorman (talk) 08:02, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
So which tag would that be for lamps which are not street lamps, and for the additional properties listed above? MHohmann (talk) 10:45, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
@MHohmann actually your proposal doesn't resolve the issue, as we would need a tag for lights and not for lamps. Lamps are the part mounted into the light fixture that actually emit the light, or refers to oil lamps and lanterns.--Dieterdreist (talk) 10:55, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
As I already pointed out before, lamp is a common use term for light fixture. Otherwise we would be using "highway=street_light" instead, and I have not seen any proposal yet to change this. MHohmann (talk) 11:23, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
  • I oppose this proposal I oppose this proposal. To many unsolved problems, to many keys are unclear, ambigiuous, not precise. --BlackBike (talk) 20:17, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
Which keys, exactly, do you see these problems with? Because in my opinion the proposal is actually much more thoroughly defined than the average. --Tordanik 08:42, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
  • I oppose this proposal I oppose this proposal. Street lamps probably represent more than 99% or more of all outdoor lamps and should therefore have a separate value (man_made=street_lamp). With this proposal you need to add two tags to every street lamp making it less attractive to map street lamps (and consuming more database and download resources). The other attributes could still be used together with a separate man_made=street_lamp tag although I doubt many mappers are going to tag street lamp details. --polderrunner (talk) 20:41, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
  • I oppose this proposal I oppose this proposal. Against replacing simple and frequently used by "highway=street_lamp" by something more complicated. Introducing additional tags in addition to "highway=street_lamp" would be OK. Bulwersator (talk) 22:27, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
  • I oppose this proposal I oppose this proposal. highway=street_lamp is a established, widely used tag which should not be obsoletet --chris66 (talk) 09:50, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
  • I oppose this proposal I oppose this proposal. highway=street_lamp is established and widely used /al 10:02, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
  • I oppose this proposal I oppose this proposal. Good intention but bad solution: we should always have some "short-cut-keys" for objects that are mapped a lot. The tag highway=street_lamp is used a lot and should be an accepted short-cut for man_made=lamp + lamp:type=street_lamp. Beside from that show-stopper the proposal looks quite fine to me! --Imagic (talk) 10:05, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
  • I oppose this proposal I oppose this proposal. as I pointed out on the mailing list and Talk:Proposed_features/lamp#Incorrect_terminology here lamp is not a good term and technically incorrect usage for what should be tagged here. Better use a generic term and subtags along the lines of light_fixture, e.g. floodlight is not a lamp type.--Dieterdreist (talk) 10:30, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
  • I oppose this proposal I oppose this proposal. aginfo gives 235 528 uses of highway=street_lamp. This tag should be preserved. I cannot judge all details of the proposal, but it invites to micromapping with all its problems and in particular of data maintenance. --voschix (talk) 10:36, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
  • I oppose this proposal I oppose this proposal.To much of new tags, which probably never will be used. It makes the tagging more and more difficult.

--Aeonesa (talk) 11:04, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

  • I oppose this proposal I oppose this proposal. Several parts of the proposal are good, but some tags mix up the properties of a lamp and of its light. See discussion. --Biff (talk) 23:33, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
  • I oppose this proposal I oppose this proposal. because the deprecation of highway=street_lamp (which I would approve) should be its own proposal and not a side note on this one. Also the lamp/light missconception. --Chaos99 (talk) 07:26, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
  • I oppose this proposal I oppose this proposal. This proposal unhelpfully conflates lamps which are for lighting streets or areas, and those designed for warning, for guidance, or for signalling. These are very distinct usages which should have separate tags: man_made=street_lamp, man_made=warning_lamp etc. Preserving the distinction also provides a simple migration path away from highway=street_lamp should we choose to do so. --achadwick (talk) 17:09, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
  • I oppose this proposal I oppose this proposal. for the reasons given above by Achadwick. Rjw62 (talk) 09:13, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
  • I oppose this proposal I oppose this proposal. highway=street_lamp is established and widely used, better extend it than make a new one Species 22:31, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
  • I oppose this proposal I oppose this proposal. It's not a good idea to try to replace highway=street_lamp, but it's a good idea to use man_made=lamp for other lamps that do not effectively work as street lamps; i.e. do not illuminate larger areas, no matter whether on streets or elsewhere. Luckily, all these tags can coexist. However, the keys seem inconsistent; a LED is not a "light" (lamp:light= ), but a light source or emitter technology or what you want to call it. I also fear that mappers are unlikely to get lamp:tilt right; when the most common case (down) isn't zero - and as the key starts with "lamp", that reads like it refers to some arbitrary axis of the outer housing, not to the tilt of the emitted light's peak intensity; the same with lamp:shape, it's describing the "shape" of the light distribution and not that of the casing. Alv (talk) 06:06, 14 November 2013 (UTC)


Votes after official voting was ended

  • I approve this proposal I approve this proposal. --AndreR (talk) 20:59, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
  • I approve this proposal I approve this proposal. --Fringillus (talk) 21:58, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

Results

In the two voting periods that this proposal has run through the following results have been obtained:

  • First voting period: 6 times . Interrupted by author because of new suggestions and improvements.
  • Second voting period: 18 times , 18 times , 1 partial approve and one after official voting period had ended, i.e. the proposal ended in a draw.

The reasons for opposing the proposal can be summarized as follows:

  • Replacement / deprecation of the widely used highway=street_lamp.
  • Introduction of new tags for a more complicated tagging.
  • Introduction of tags which are not differentiated between light fixture, lamp and light.

The reasons for approving the proposal can be summarized as follows:

  • Deprecation of highway=street_lamp, since a lamp ultimately is not a highway or a part thereof.
  • Introduction of new tags that allow a more detailed mapping of lamps.
  • Introduction of new tags for light sources which are not street lamps.

Obviously the proposal cannot be changed in such a way to accommodate these different desires, as they directly contradict each other (in favour of / against deprecation of highway=street_lamp, make the proposed tagging simpler / more differentiated and introduce even more complicated tags). This result therefore suggests the following possibilities for proceeding with this proposal:

  • Those who voted against the proposal need to agree on how to change it such that it will become more acceptable. This step requires further discussion and finally a conclusion, since obviously the proposal cannot be changed simultaneously in the different directions which have been suggested during voting.
  • Use the proposed features as they are. Since the comments from the voting indicate that also among those who opposed the proposal there is agreement with some of its parts, this appears reasonable. Further, it is likely to happen anyway, since the result has shown that there is a clear interest in detailed lamp mapping from parts of the community. The proposed tagging will evolve further through practical tag usage.

For this reason the status has for now again been set to "proposed", and it will be continued to work on it, until there is further progress.

Presets