Talk:Tag:leisure=sports hall

From OpenStreetMap Wiki
Jump to navigation Jump to search

Differentiation between sports_hall and sports_centre

It typically helps mappers to have clear criteria, when they have to decide between two values. For these values here, there are some clear cases, and a grey area.

So, a traditional school sports hall, used for the pupils in the morning, and rented to various local sports clubs in the evening, operated on a non-profit basis, is leisure=sports_hall. It could have locker/changing rooms, showers, and a depot room for devices.

On the other end, a facility with more than one hall for different types of sport, with a separate cafe, with a sauna, with a separate reception/booking desk, would be leisure=sports_centre (which can have the halls mapped inside).

What needs discussion are cases like:

  • a building with interconnected halls for the same kind of sport. Often such halls are reused from industrial purposes and inherit the old layout.
  • How large can the cafe be before it turns the facility into a centre. Halls I know have a large coffee machine at the reception desk, and some have a small kitchen where the heat you a pizza or cook a chilli.

--Polarbear w (talk) 11:08, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

Why should a cafe/restaurant convert a sports hall into a sports centre? Would you tag the large building in the example recently added by @Hjart: with leisure=sports_centre? The homepage [1] says: We can offer large green areas, playing fields, tennis courts and petanque terrain. A multi-field, penna court and several grass fields are also available... All this outdoor stuff has been mapped within a separate landuse=recreation_ground area area, but I assume it belongs to the sports_centre and the building is not the complete sports_centre; then I would tag it with building=sports_centre instead/only. --Hufkratzer (talk) 16:01, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
Please note that most of the example given was mapped at a time when I (and most other mappers in Denmark) were utterly confused over the related tags. You're probably right and I'll have another look at this sports centre when I feel like it ;-). Thank you for fixing the map example btw. I had no idea how to and could just hope someone else would have. --Hjart (talk) 17:35, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
I did not say a cafe turns a hall into a centre. I said we need to discuss how to differentiate them. --Polarbear w (talk) 01:54, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

No definition

While the page frequently includes the term "sports hall", this term is not defined anywhere on the page. As an American, I haven't really heard this term used. How is this different than a leisure=sports_centre, or a leisure=fitness_centre, or other similar tags? I think it would have been preferable to move forward with an RFC and voting in the proposal process, which would have addressed issues like this. --Jeisenbe (talk) 14:09, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Ok, have a look at the examples and tell us what your AmE term would be for them? Gym, maybe? --Polarbear w (talk) 14:21, 5 September 2019 (UTC)
I'm more concerned about translation into Indonesian, and a clear distinction from sports_centre. When I searched for "cambridge dictionary sports hall" I got the definition for "sports centre" as the top hit: Sports centre - "a building where you can play different sports". That seems to be nearly the same as the implied definition for "sports hall" - neither Cambridge or Oxford dictionaries online offer a a defintion for "sports hall", but Harper-Collins says "Sports Hall: a building or part of a building in which sports are played" - basically identical to the Cambridge definition of Sports Centre. I see that above you suggested that a sports_centre might have a cafe, sauna and reception area, but none of these features are mentioned on the page leisure=sports_centre and would not be what I'd expect to find in Indonesia or the USA at a tennis center or futsal (indoor soccer) place. So I'm just not seeing how mappers can be expected to tag these differently. In the proposal it was mentioned that some people were mistakenly mapping sports_centres inside of sports_centres but the same problem could happen for schools, and we don't have a special amenity=school_hall tag for every school building, just building=school - why not just use building=sports_hall? --Jeisenbe (talk) 14:47, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Riding hall and swimming hall are not sports halls

A riding hall and a swimming hall are very specialized buildings only usable for one single purpsoe. They are not a member of the general class "sports hall", nobody would ever call them a "gym" which is synonymous according to this page). @Hufkratzer: Please revert your recent additions or show proof of previous discussion for your changes. --Nop (talk) 18:12, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

Analogous answer as in Talk:Riding#A_riding_hall_ist_not_a_sports_hall : I had asked here and got no response. After a while some more tennis halls, swimming halls and riding halls were tagged with leisure=sports_hall, so I included them in the proposal (see here). There were no objections about that so far. Swimming halls and riding halls are not more specialized than a tennis halls. Do you want to make proposals for leisure=swimming_hall and leisure=rding_hall ot what? --Hufkratzer (talk) 19:12, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
PS: leisure=sports_hall is not about the building type but about the use of a building. For example, it is possible to use a quite unspecialized barn for horse riding (building=barn + leisure=sports_hall + sport=equestrian), compare this summary: The solution was found in 2018 with activating a tag with small usage that time, leisure=sports_hall, which solves both cases,

a) having a tag for a small individual facility,
b) having a tag for each of several facilities like the rowing hall, the climbing hall, the ice skating hall [...]
For the building type of a (specialized) riding hall be have building=riding_hall : --Hufkratzer (talk) 20:04, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
(Analogous answer) I am sure you are aware that adding a new tag requires a proposal or a discussion and a clear majority vote in favour of it. No response is not good enough and now you do have an objection. Did you notice that in the Summary you are quoting above, neither swimming nor riding are on the list of examples to be considered? They are disussing locations like sports_center or a campus gym. I believe you are about to make the same mistake that was made with highway=path: Trying to use a term in a more generic way than its actual meaning. I think this will cause horse farms and maybe spas to be mixed up with sports centers and I object to your change. I ask you again to revert it yourself. I simply propose to leave everyting as it is, building=riding_hall is good enough, there is absolutely no need to create another tag for it or force it in a misconceived generalization. --Nop (talk) 19:09, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
"adding a new tag requires a proposal or a discussion and a clear majority vote in favour of it." This tag was discussed extensively (see External Discussions) and a vote is not mandatory. You have made proposals yourself and never asked for a vote in favour of them. Furthermore the tag is not new and the proposal only proposes a documentation for an existing tag and is based on how it is used.
"No response is not good enough and now you do have an objection. Did you notice that in the Summary you are quoting above, neither swimming nor riding are on the list of examples to be considered? They are disussing locations like sports_center or a campus gym." If sports halls of schools, tennis halls, rowing halls, climbing halls and ice skating halls can be tagged with leisure=sports_hall swimming halls and riding halls can be too as long as there is no better leisure tag for them.
"I believe you are about to make the same mistake that was made with highway=path: Trying to use a term in a more generic way than its actual meaning." I don't understand what the problem with highway=path is.
"I think this will cause horse farms and maybe spas to be mixed up with sports centers and I object to your change." I don't think so, like I also don't think that tagging sports halls of schools with this tag will cause schools to be tagged as sports centres. But I agree that horse farms have a separate tag (see Talk:Tag:leisure=horse riding)
"I simply propose to leave everyting as it is, building=riding_hall is good enough, there is absolutely no need to create another tag for it or force it in a misconceived generalization." This is unfortunately not true. This has extensively been discussed on the mailing list and many mappers add leisure tags to buildings to indicate for what they are used.
"I ask you again to revert it yourself." Using leisure=sports_hall for swimming and riding halls is ok IMHO. Normally I would ask on the tagging list about your objection to make it clear. But unfortunately I can't do that now because I would not be able to follow and to participate in such a discussion during the next weeks, sorry.
--Hufkratzer (talk) 18:57, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
I agree that swimming pools and riding arenas are not Gymnasiums or Sports Halls in the normal sense: they don't have a wood or other flat, solid floor like an ordinary hall or gymnasium. And a swimming poor or riding arena can also be outdoors with the same function - the roof does not change the definition. I would map these as leisure=swimming_pool (for the actual area of the pool) and leisure=pitch + sport=equestrain + surface=dirt/etc (for the actual area of the riding arena surface). --Jeisenbe (talk) 21:35, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Scope of the tag

@Jeisenbe - you were just completely changing the page, significantly narrowing its scope. Where is the analysis that the mappers who use the tag think as you do?
You removed riding and swimming facilities with the argument that they don't use a hardwood floor, but you introduced such requirement just now with your batch of edits. Sure we can use leisure=swimming_pool for the actual area of the pool, but the tag here is not for the pool itself, it is for the hall around. If you think the latter makes no difference, try using an open pool in icy weather. I see the tag suitable for enclosed single-sport facilities of different kind, thus I propose to revert the removals, and make the hardwood an example, not a requirement. --Polarbear w (talk) 02:31, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

Most of the features have been added by iD users where it is described in US English as a "Gymnasium". A swimming pool, or a horse riding arena, are certainly not gymnasiums. I question why it would be necessary to use leisure=sports_hall for those features when there are other options like leisure=pitch (used for outdoor horse arenas) and leisure=swimming_pool (used for outdoor swimming pools), and leisure=sports_centre (used for all kinds of sports facilities).
Or do you believe that leisure=sports_hall is basically the same as leisure=sports_centre, except that it is for a single building? --Jeisenbe (talk) 07:17, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
I added back a line saying that there are also other features including swimming pools and riding areas which have used this tag (unfortunately this has been done an number of times in areas that I reviewed, which seems to make it unclear how this is different from leisure=sports_centre on a building), but I would also note that there was opposition to this above on this Talk page last year so it was not a unilateral decision. --Jeisenbe (talk) 07:45, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
In the previous discussion above on this Talk page last year it was proposed to put no leisure tag at all on a riding hall and not to use leisure=pitch what you have recommended in Talk:Tag:building=riding_hall#Combination with leisure=pitch, leisure=sports_centre or leisure=sports_hall or leisure=sports_centre what you have recommended here. So this was a bit different. Although I think the problem was in general already discussed a lot on the tagging list (only not for riding halls explicitly) I will ask again there explicitly for riding halls and for other types of halls which are used for some kind of sport and which are not gymnasiums. But I need some time to prepare it. --Hufkratzer (talk) 15:20, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
I am in support of using leisure=sports_hall for any kind of enclosure for indoor sports activities with the criterion that it typically has only one room for the activity (plus changing/locker/shower/storage/technical rooms). The pitch, or even two or three, let them be hardwood or sawdust, can be inside the enclosure (and micromapped if the mapper likes). --Polarbear w (talk) 18:22, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
So you think leisure=sports_hall is identical to leisure=pitch + building=yes for a covered riding arena, and also identical to a leisure=sports_centre + building=yes for a single building which holds 2 pools and changing rooms? --Jeisenbe (talk) 19:56, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
No, I don't! One object is the building, tagged leisure=sports_hall+building=(building type), and inside can be another object such as leisure=pitch or leisure+swimming_pool.--Polarbear w (talk) 00:06, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
What about leisure=sports_centre + building=yes for a single building which holds 2 pools and changing rooms, and which is not part of a larger sports_centre? --Jeisenbe (talk) 03:57, 22 January 2021 (UTC)