Proposal:Ladders
| Ladders | |
|---|---|
| Proposal status: | Approved (active) |
| Proposed by: | Dieterdreist |
| Tagging: | highway=ladder |
| Applies to: |  / 
|
| Definition: | Use for a ladder, a vertical or inclined set of steps or rungs intended for climbing or descending of a person with the help of hands. |
| Statistics: |
|
| Draft started: | 2023-10-09 |
| RFC start: | 2023-10-09 |
| Vote start: | 2023-10-24 |
| Vote end: | 2023-11-07 |
Proposal
This is a proposal to tag ladders, particularly those that are fixed to the place. These should ideally integrate into the highway network, so connect them to the rest of the graph. You can either represent the ladder with a node or with a way.
For the distinction between highway=steps and highway=ladder, ladder should be preferred if normally abled people are required to use their hands, for example in the following cases:
- a normally abled person has to use their hands because of steepness
- the stair tread is very short (refers to the horizontal dimension of the individual step in the direction of walking), so that many people will want to use their hands. This is to cater for situations of ladders in less inclined positions, where it is still considered a ladder and not just stairs e.g. [1]
Rationale
Ladders are sometimes important elements for a highway graph, connecting a lower to an upper end, and while they may be unsurmountable for some users (e.g. in a wheelchair or with a bicycle), they can be very useful for hikers to avoid long detours, or even to reach an otherwise not reachable place, or are used in different context to reach places for maintenance as required (e.g. in factories, to get on or from roofs or silos, to climb out of a waterway or waterbody with a steep border, etc.) or in case of emergencies.
Tagging
Use highway=ladder as the main tag. You can add additional tags like height=*, step_count=*, width=* and if applicable also name=* and ref=*.
Direction
On ways, use incline=* to indicate the direction.
If the ladder is a node on a way, the way should be split and the upper way should get a higher layer=* than the part reaching from below, when several ways are connected to the ladder on different levels, sort the layers as always.
Examples
Features/Pages affected
This deprecates the documented practise to combine highway=path with the property ladder=yes, which can be quite misleading and even dangerous/annoying, there can be either a path or a ladder, a ladder is not a kind of path. Note that ladder=yes can still make sense as a property for ways tagged with highway=via_ferrata.
Comments
Please comment on the discussion page.
Voting
Voting on this proposal has been closed.
It was approved with 20 votes for, 1 vote against and 3 abstentions.
Voting ended on 2023-11-07, 21 votes cast, 20 yes, 1 no (maybe invalid), 3 comments. 95% approval, the proposal is approved.
I approve this proposal. --Jrachi (talk) 09:39, 24 October 2023 (UTC)- I approve this proposal. --Dieterdreist (talk) 09:58, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
I oppose this proposal. The discussion on this topic was not yet finished IMO --chris66 (talk) 10:39, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- I didn’t have this impression, what are the open topics? —-Dieterdreist (talk) 13:57, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --Rskedgell (talk) 12:45, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. I would also be ok with
highway=steps+steps=ladderbut either would be better than the status quo. --Adamfranco (talk) 14:35, 24 October 2023 (UTC) - I approve this proposal. Seconding
highway=steps;steps=ladderas better, seeing as the transition from steep steps to ladder might be fluid, but this would work as well. --SinusPi (talk) 14:42, 24 October 2023 (UTC) - I approve this proposal. --268ecdcd (talk) 16:30, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
I have comments but abstain from voting on this proposal. There is only one picture in the set, where mapping a way looks plausible, on the roof of a Ford company building. I do not see a highway there. This was brought up in forum but received no love. Does highway not have to do with traffic? Are chimney sweep ladders really highways? --Hungerburg (talk) 21:22, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- I agree that the Ford roof is a clear case for using a way, but also 1 and 7 would be short ways if mapping in detail. Generally, there is no requirement for "traffic" for what we use highway=* in osm, think about access=no features. Chimney sweep ladders could be mapped with this tag, but the motivation for the proposal was the representation of ladders that can be used by the general public. --Dieterdreist (talk) 22:07, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- Are highway=elevator and highway=steps roads? —— Kovposch (talk) 05:47, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. -- Something B (talk) 21:23, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --B-unicycling (talk) 22:50, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --LeonardF85 (talk) 09:58, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --Dafadllyn (talk) 16:52, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --Vasony (talk) 16:58, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --ITineris (talk) 17:39, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --Urbalazs (talk) 20:17, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --Marcor (talk) 13:04, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --Woazboat (talk) 17:05, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --Harahu (talk) 22:36, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- I have comments but abstain from voting on this proposal. Would be better to clarify how highway=ladder and highway=via_ferrata + ladder=yes should be used. highway=via_ferrata + ladder=yes for section containing ladders overall; highway=ladder for exact positions? —— Kovposch (talk) 05:47, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
- This is out of scope in this generic ladder proposal, clarifications of via ferrata tagging would merit their own discussion, they are an exception in a specialist context. Currently, the wiki says ladder=yes means there is a ladder somewhere and it also says here that it is only for steel ladders.—Dieterdreist (talk) 20:53, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
- I have comments but abstain from voting on this proposal. Just adding a few bits of information here that emerged in the community discussion and that I think are important context. One is that uses of ladder=yes as documented on the Wiki page, on a path, are actually in the minority. Far more common is the use of ladder=yes as an additional tag on a hunting stand, giant furniture or other feature. The proposal author made clear that this use is not being deprecated. So in my view, if the proposal is successful, the page for ladder=yes should document that de facto usage. Another use is ladder=yes as a standalone tag on a node. These can be found, for example, at swimming pools and docks. The author said this usage is being deprecated by the proposal, so those would become highway=ladder in the future. --Osmuser63783 (talk) 17:24, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
- exactly, ladder=yes as a property (the feature has a ladder) will not be deprecated, but people are invited to retag ladder=yes to highway=ladder where the OpenStreetMap geometry represents the ladder (the feature is a ladder). —-Dieterdreist (talk) 20:56, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --Famlam (talk) 22:39, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. This is consistent with highway=steps, and I consider this an opt-in ("Need to allow highway=ladder") instead of an opt-out ("Is there ladder=yes anywhere? Then ignore/include"). I believe opt-in is better for something as nonstandard as a ladder. I would prefer using level=* to layer=* (see here), but I am fine with both. --Crodthauser (talk) 01:13, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- You can use both, layer=* is generic and about the relative stacking, while level=* is specific to the place and generally makes more sense in buildings and built up context while it isn't usually defined in natural settings. --Dieterdreist (talk) 11:14, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. I've missed it from time to time in the past. --Supaplex030 (talk) 15:40, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. Last but not least Fanfouer (talk) 18:20, 7 November 2023 (UTC)