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Page content / key description

Chrabros was "Trying to define the tag according to Map Features". I have reverted this preliminary. Should we just set such a definition without discussion? Hmm … Where was the discussion for the addition/description on Map Features? Thank you --Aseerel4c26 (talk) 13:27, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

OK. So let's discuss it. I was just extrapolating on the description given of MapFeatures page and on the content of this tag. Why you haven't reveted the description there, if you are so concerned about it?
And what was wrong with my description? Only the lack of discussion?
Do you have better description? Then write it here. Reverting is really easy...
Chrabros (talk) 14:09, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
I do not watch the Map Features page, so I did not notice it. Yes, I reverted mainly just to avoid establishing a potentially new meaning of a already widely used tag. In principle here in the wiki there is the proposal process to define meanings of tags, but you seem to intentionally wanting to skip it. ...which may be okay.
Reverting back to your description is easy too!
One issue: "link to the image" and mentioning URL/URI seems to imply that a image should be directly linked. This is only useful in case of public domain images. Otherwise the attribution and license mention is missing. So in that cases a link to a HTML page containing the image and attribution may be useful / may be used.
I do not want to read the old proposal now. I will come back to this later. Note that you do not need to copy the page content to here (including categorization...). Still accessible in the history, I had already mentioned the link in my comment above. Do not get crazy, please. --Aseerel4c26 (talk) 14:35, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
Unfortunately, your description does not take the feedback from the two failed proposal votes into account 1 2. Specifically:
  • The subjectivity of the image choice, and the inability to link more than one image.
  • Whether images should be limited to platforms (e.g. Wikimedia Commons) that offer a machine-readable license or CC0 content to allow legal re-use.
  • Whether the linked image should be required to be under a free license.
Each vote ended without the required number of participants, by the way.
As for Map Features, its content is split across a lot of templates, so almost no one has the entirety on their watch list. As a result, a lot of edits are slipping through unnoticed. --Tordanik 15:20, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
I am not mad, but I an not excited as well.
And I am not skipping anything. The proposal process is for proposing a new tags etc. I was not proposing anything I was just copying (and adding a little bit) from another place on the same wiki (which you did not bother to read).
I have Map Features on my watch list and it is really not difficult to keep up.
Well, the proposal was still linked there.
Yes, I have deliberately omitted the content of the proposal, as it is proposal. So I was just trying to describe the current state and in those two lines I have stated that the definition is not really good one.
Still, I believe that both lines I have added are true.
So, what now? Chrabros (talk) 15:31, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
You were essentially proposing a "new" key. The page was empty before. I wrote that I will get back to this issue, but I just realized that I should not invest my scarce time here, sorry. Tordanik summarized it good. What now? You can write on the page that the key's meaning is discussed - add this talk page to the "see also" section. So everybody can view your proposed version. --Aseerel4c26 (talk) 18:01, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
Well, I still think that you do not see it, or do not want to see it. I was not essentially proposing a new key. I was just copying its description from MapFeatures page. And because the description there was not really clear I just extrapolated little bit from the current values of data.
I still believe that my two lines description is consistent with the rest of wiki and key's usage.
Tordanik is right that there might be a notice to those three problematic points. But this could be added to the page instead of deleting it.
Also there is a STUB template use which just says "try to improve the page". I have tried.
Tordanik, do you agree with reverting to my version, emphasizing that there was no proposal process for this key and adding those three problematic points you mentioned? I would like to see some content there as I do no like keys with no definition at all. Chrabros (talk) 03:04, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
All things considered, I think that adding text explaining the points of disagreement could indeed be a reasonable solution. Even if one does not want the key to be used, the current blank page isn't really preferable - people might that the tag does exist and the explanation page has simply not been written yet. So I'd offer to modify your version to explain the controversy. Is that acceptable for everyone? --Tordanik 16:30, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
You were proposing a new key definition, because you added the content to this page (which may be seen as the truth™ by some people). Yes, you just copied, but those other pages are not that relevant - however the definition slipped in there. However, thank you for wanting to fill in the stub, really. Adding a minor issue: you mentioned "URL" - I guess some people may only add filenames of files which can be found in this wiki (maybe indirectly accessing Wikimedia Commons).
Tordanik, good luck in trying to be neutral. :-) --Aseerel4c26 (talk) 20:41, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
The page is now updated and available for fine-tuning or complete rejection. But I hope I have been successful in fairly including all viewpoints. --Tordanik 02:41, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
Thanks, fine for me. I made some small changes/additions. --Aseerel4c26 (talk) 11:54, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
Hi, I like it very much. It is actually much better then similar page elsewhere. Nice work. :-)
Two questions though:
Do you really believe that Key: page is more important than the entry in Map Features page? I got the impression that it is vice versa. First the link to Map Features is third link in the main menu which kind of says that it is really important. Also I believe that many readers read just the Map Features page for a short summary and do not go into any more details on Key or Tag pages {this is even more valid for non English speaking users as the Map Features page is translated among first). Sure, there are many inconsistencies between Map Features and relevant Key and Tag page and when I am translating I am trying to fix that if I can. But I would say that the info on Map Features if of greater importance.
Is possible linking to a copyrighted image really a problem? The image must be displayed on the web either by an author or possibly someone else. But if we provide a link to it it does not sound as we break any more copyright rules. Or are there countries where you can link only with author permission?
Chrabros (talk) 04:44, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
I am never looking up on Map Features (takes long to load). Sometimes on DE:How_to_map_a. But most often on key/tag pages. And regarding the description on Map Features: you see it differs from the actual key usage.
"Copyrighted" images: a link likely (! … IANAL) is not a problem in most countries. But if a user of OSM data displays the image after clicking on a POI (e.g. in a popup on a map), then it likely really IS an issue. It is a slippery slope. Courts sometimes have interesting viewpoints. And in general: we are part of the free / open content community and should encourage other free content. Makes our data more usable! --Aseerel4c26 (talk) 13:32, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
I also rarely visit Map Features. The concept of the page is to only show the most common and popular tags, which lends itself more to newbies. Those tags are generally also the ones which I know already and which are also available as editor presets. For my own mapping, I usually use the search function, taginfo, or go directly to a specific wiki page if I know the name. And if I explain something on forum/help I definitely link the Key/Tag page. But Map Features might still be helpful for others, especially beginners.
As for the copyright of images, I think Aseerel4c26 has already covered that. --Tordanik 12:12, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
PS: When I wrote "aborted votes" on Key:image, I meant the two proposal votes that were cancelled before the standard 2 weeks voting were over and before the quorum of 15 voters was reached, respectively. I hope I phrased that correctly, English is not my native language. --Tordanik 12:21, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
OK, got it. I am glad that the content of this page is much more pleasant than it was. :-)
I think that it would be "cancelled votes" rather than "aborted votes" and quick google search seems to confirm it. But who knows maybe native speakers will call it different way. Chrabros (talk) 06:14, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
Yes, that seems better to me. Confirmed by 3 to 0 results ("cancelled vote" vs. "aborted vote") in English Wikipedia text. Changed. --Aseerel4c26 (talk) 11:37, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Limit to Wikimedia Comons?

Why don't you simply limit this use case to wikimedia commons, by using a new tag wikimedia_commons=, similar to Key:wikipedia? It would resolve most issues (access to license, no linking of untrusted sources, obsolete URLs, etc.), and implementations can still check this older image= tag for supported values. Also would be in spirit of free information access, as these projects are similar minded. Also would encourage users to share their OSM photos of historical places to Wikimedia Commons. Kempelen (talk) 21:02, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. I would also point out that when dealing with panorama images, that they also take away a lot of the spamming / subjective problems, as a panorama image there is no single chosen angle, allowing spammers to highlight commercial signs etc. Panoramas, taken from a uniform height, provide a pretty objective representation of *everything* around a specific set of geo-co-ordinates. To me it seems that pano images, uploaded to Wikimedia Commons, under a free license, should present very few of the presented issues at all. Even non-pano images under this proposal seem like a significant step up. In the same way that we currently can extract a wealth of data from the Bing maps arial photographs (while they still allow us access), open licensed, street level images would give potential access to add a lot of verifiable data to mappers who couldn't physically get to a location, in the same way that we can currently add many items to the map via tracing Bing Maps. RoadLessTraveled (talk) 05:35, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
But what happens when there is a category of images on Wikimedia Commons? It seems to me that, in this case, the wikimedia_commons tag should contain the category. As a result, there would no longer be an opportunity to link a single image, and the choice of images in applications would be effectively random. --Tordanik 15:18, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
I'm in favor of the wikimedia_commons= tag. Most wikipedia pages of places have a single prominent photo. Take,_Florida), as a random example. It seems the osm editors could in most cases choose a single photo. There are many applications where being able to display a single photo would be helpful. Additionally, this would promote sharing between the two projects. Brianegge (talk) 16:13, 18 November 2014 (UTC)