Please keep the discussion in English
Tripple meaning of the emergency=*-Keys
Should the unfortunate tripple meaning of emergency=*-Keys also be up to discussion here?
You could create new tags for two of the three usages
--LordOfMaps (talk) 16:15, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
- Definitely. I think especially emergency=yes/no should not be used anywhere, but rather be replaced with more meaningfull taggs. --AndiG88 (talk) 00:42, 14 June 2014 (UTC)
- The existing, unfortunate use of emergency=yes is to indicate in amenity=hospital a hospital that has a department to deal with emergencies (US: emergency room, UK: accidents and emergency, DE: Notaufnahme, etc.). Suggestion: how about tagging such hospitals with emergency=hospital instead of emergency=yes? The idea is that all objects with an emergency=* key should indicate facilities available for dealing with emergencies, and the value should indicate what that facility is. This would allow easy search for all nearby emergency facilities, including hospital emergency rooms. The emergency=hospital property should perhaps best be assigned with the building or entrance closest to the emergency department, e.g. its reception, not with the entire hospital campus and all its many non-emergency facilities, to help users find it in case of emergency. Markus Kuhn (talk) 20:53, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
What do you think about access:emergency=* ? It would even allow for somthing like =designated apart from yes/no. --AndiG88 (talk) 06:45, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- If I am right you can use access:emergency=*, access=emergency or emergency=* for access-restricions. Due to the fact that the last option results in emergency=yes/no, I prefer a tagging with access:emergency_vehicle=*, access=emergency_vehicle or emergency_vehicle=*. --LordOfMaps (talk) 07:24, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- My idea was that access:emergency=* would replace access=emergency & emergency=*. I don't support the idea of having 3 different tags, which bascially all mean the same. So even with emergency_vehicle I think there should only be 1 option. --AndiG88 (talk) 07:37, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
I also like this idea. The long-awaited emergency_service=* would also be wonderful. --Martin minheim (talk) 16:22, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
- Where do you see the advantage? On the one hand I like the idea, but looking closer at it I found a lot of things confusing. Like land can mean a lot of things and also for water there can be a big difference between lifeguard and coastguard.--AndiG88 (talk) 07:37, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- To me the 'emergency service' is not a place to go to get emergency help, rather they are the places help gets sent from. And the wiki page has amenity=hospital .. that is not necessarily a service place for an emergency. Warin61 (talk) 06:58, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
There are also some emergency=sos_point
Wouldn't it make more sense to use emergency=access_point ? --AndiG88 (talk) 01:22, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
- I prefer emergency=access_point instead of highway=emergency_access_point or emergency=sos_point. --LordOfMaps (talk) 07:03, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
emergency_telephone_code=* / phone:emergency=* / emergency_phone=*
Related tag: emergency=phone
Is there a difference between thoses tags?
I don't really like the use of the word code here, sounds more like area code than a phone number. --AndiG88 (talk) 06:54, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Yes there is a difference: the emergency=phone is for the phone box you find along roads, tunnels, or in dangerous areas. These phones can be used to make a toll-free call to a unique emergency center. You don't need to know any number, and you are immediately geolocalized.
- The 3 other keys (in headings) are most probably not needed if they are meant to indicate a phone number:
- Emergency services are callable over a very wide area which may span a full country, or even a whole continent
- In Europe, just call 112 from any phone, including a mobile phone without a SIM card or with no credits, or a mobile phone that is locked by the operator (this call is toll free for everyone). All smartphones sold in Europe have builtin firware accepting this number. There are also other nationwide emergency numbers for more specialized emergencies (police, doctor, firemen), that mobile phones will also route for free. Those numbers will be routed to an available local emergency service everyday in the year and 24/24, but this is always the same number. So these numbers are not geolocalized.
- very specific emergency numbers are those only usable in private areas, they are not necessarily always available. These numbers may also not be usable without connecting to the internal phone network.
- with the huge development of nationwide emergency services and the standardization of their call number, it is not recomended to call directly a local emergency service (it could perturbate the management, deployment and coordination of various emergency services, and you are in fact not sure to find them available at a local phone number).
Perhaps emergency_number rather than code? Emergency phone numbers change around the world, 911, 999, 000 for instance. The only constant phone number exists for cell phones 112. Warin61 (talk) 08:38, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
- Note: 112 is not just for cell phones. It can be used on any phone connected to the public network. Buit for emergency phones found along rods you really should use them (internall they are also using cell phone, but the call is automated and routed to the best service that can help you fast in your area, and they can take additional measures to prevent further accidents, such as closing roads and reserving access to emergency services, in order to speed up the help they can provide to the caller, the victims to assist and other people around or the environment). — Verdy_p (talk) 17:05, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
Emergency phones exist at various places .. usually connecting to the service provider (bridge, highway for example). The is an emergency radio phone that connects to the Royal Flying Doctor Service in the middle of the Simpson Desert in Australia .. about 300 km from the nearest help over many sand dunes for example. Warin61 (talk) 08:38, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
amenity=* vs. emergency=*
Shouldn't have these three features the same key?
I prefer the emergency=*-key. --LordOfMaps (talk) 07:26, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
- I also prefer the emergency=*-key. --klik (talk) 11:05, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
I kinda have a problem with police, because for example Federal_Criminal_Police_Office_(Germany) (I guess it's compareable to the FBI and NCA) has very little to do with emergency. Maybe the question is, if it is a police station in the fist place or we should actually use different tags like office=government.--AndiG88 (talk) 06:40, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- What about emergency=police_station for the police stations you can find in every town? --LordOfMaps (talk) 07:18, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
The features which are stations for emergency services do not necessarily offer an immediate response. In rural Australia, most fire- and ambulance-stations are not permanently manned, and arriving at them and wanting immediate assistance is a false expectation. They should all be tagged amenity=police, amenity=ambulance_station or amenity=fire_station so rendering can show what they are,
then add but change it to eg: emergency=police if you can arrive and expect immediate help. This should ideally change the rendering, but I'm not sure how to achieve this in a universal way. The idea is that anything labelled with emergency=*, be it a fire hose, a call button, a roadside phone or a manned station, should be able to provide (or give quick contact with) immediate help.
For administrative offices of these services, eg: office=police may be the solution. Innesw (talk) 07:05, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
Possibly the rendering and tagging should be approached the same as hospital where the emergency part is tagged as a sub tag to the main key .. rendering could then be a background colour to the main rendering .. red perhaps Warin61 (talk) 08:45, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
Life Ring, Lifebelt, Lifebuoy
Does not seem that clear, although the mailing list mostly supports lifebelt as British English term.
On the other hand the database mostly shows life ring and lifebuoy in different combinations (these are just the 4 most common tags)
Tag:emergency=life_ring probably also is the most used one, because it is documented. (It's also pretty close to a literal German translation)
- I prefer emergency=life_ring.--LordOfMaps (talk) 07:19, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- There are not only floating rings which are designed for rescuing people out of the water, you can also find some kind of poles with a hook or a ring at the end, floating balls with a net around them to grap them, ladders, etc. I've also seen small rescue boats near a boat lock. (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kategorie:Wasserrettungsmittel)
- So I would go further and tag it wiht emergency=water_rescue_equippment and would do a finer selection with a additional tag.--M.groebs (talk) 11:44, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
Isn't this something for a ref=* tag? Maybe ref:emergency=* --AndiG88 (talk) 09:45, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
Emergency landing page
as I noticed, that there seems to be some interest by externals to learn about this topic and because OSM already has some interested users, I would like to suggest to create some landing page for the topic? IMHO it's worth to consider emergency as general page that gives an overview to (external) users and points them to the right directions (e.g. emergency=*, existing projects, aspects for special interest groups as firefighters / rescue squads / ...). So is there already a plan to create an overview that is not just on tagging, but on 'promoting' or summarizing this aspect of OSM? --!i! 10:55, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
Hi all! Just a question: is there the rendering for defibrillators on the OSM standard layer? If not, is it possible to add? --Yiyi (talk) 23:17, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
- Hi Yiyi,
- a defibrillator is not rendering on the OSM standard layer. --Martin minheim (talk) 08:48, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
- But it's rendered on the French renderer as you can see here, starting at zoom level 17.
- As the French renderer is a fork of the global renderer, you can suggest to integrate this part to the trunk, it should be straight-forward. --Nospam2005 (talk) 20:33, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
Civil Defence/Civil Protection/Disaster response
In almost all countries exist an organisation that provides emergency help in situations of collective risk, extraordinary catastrophe or public disaster, usually called Civil Defence or Civil Protection (Civil defense on Wikipedia). Now it can be tagged emergency=ses_station, where SES stands for the Australian State Emergency Service. It's not very used probably because of the Australian name, so I think something more international should be created, for example emergency=civil_protection or civil_protection_base or station.
--Mor (talk) 18:07, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
- I fully agree. The terms "civil protection" being the most common apparently and much less obscure than the Australian-specific "SES" acronym.
- However note that some countries have several parallel systems for handling emergency situations: e.g. one for natural disasters (earthquakes, storms and hurricanes, flowings...), another for health emergencies, another for maritime emergencies, another for air emergencies, another for industrial disasters, and they don't always have the same compentences.
- In addition there are civil organizations (which are fine within "civil protection"), and military organizations (which are more related to "civil defence"). Some countries are associated both (e.g. in France the firemen in Paris and Marseille have military status, all permanently employed, where everywhere else they are civil servants, with a significant number of them acting voluntarily in parallel of their regular job, even if there are permanent employees for managing the structures with strong relations with local collectivities and local representants of the national state, i.e. prefects).
- Some emergency services are also completely private even if they have a public service mission (e.g. maritime emergency in France, by the "Société Nationale de Sauvetage en Mer", alias SNSM, which is corporate because it can act in relation with military authorities, but still very unique as a private corporation as it receives donations from the public, in addition to money from civil authorities, and maritime companies). Some are civil associations without any commerical goal (e.g. emergency in moutain by corporate associations of montain guides, often working with other associations managing natural parks). However in France, all these services are coordinated by "Protection Civile" (which also operates the nationwide emergency toll-free call number "112", the same number being used throughout Europe, which can then pilot the cases and drive them to medical assistance by phone, contact doctors, hospitals, call ambulances, the police, firemen, or many other kind of emergency services, including the armies and state authorities, or corporate services such as gas/electricity energy providers/producers).
- Many emergency services are in fact regular divisions of national or regional police services (the civil "police" in most cities, or a military "gendarmerie" in rural areas, both also making civil investigations for the civil justice), with seasonal activities (e.g. security on beaches or in mountain resorts).
- Why are there so many actors? Simply because this is mandatory by law, in all organizations with a minimum number of people, or in events inviting the public, to organize the security and emergency, with trained people, physical equipments, and internal security rules that they must make visible and known to anyone going there. Training enough people is generally the most important problem in many countries, it is a permanent need, independantly of the permanent existence (operating 365/365 and 24/24) of national or regional emergency coordination services. — Verdy_p (talk) 18:31, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
emergency=disaster_response was recently discussed on the mailing list for this category, which is neutral in regards of civil or military organisational forms. It is also usable worldwide, not using a particular country's acronym.--Polarbear w (talk) 22:09, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Tag:emergency=fire hydrant was tagged for cleanup in May 2014 - nearly three years ago. The tag is still there. Does it serve any useful purpose? Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 14:30, 4 March 2017 (UTC)
- No, I am removing these pointless banners. In general, on encountering pointless banners the best option is to remove them (also, fix issue quickly if there is any). Otherwise we risk ending we absurdity of people wasting massive amounts of time on tagging with banners without leading to any improvements, with false feeling of doing something useful - happens on Wikipedia Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 08:27, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
- I do agree: banners posted without any proposal for changes in the talk page (explaining why things can't be fixed easily) are pointless. If there are real problems, they must be explained. There may be very temporary banners only for real work in progress, where not much is still explained in the talk page. The reason for a banner can also be the existence of a discussion elsewhere, but the location of this discussion taking place should also be stated in the talk page (this could be a voting page when there are several conflicting alternatives for the fixes to apply). Banners could also be set on unfinished work (e.g. unfininished translations), or for pages that need updates (e.g. an, initially translated page that is missing lots of improvbements added in another language, with additional info people may be interesting: it's not awlays easy to fix the page itself if one needs to understand the language or if the additions made alsewhere are very technical). Some banners may be present because of polical problems with conflicting views depending on the language used (where a majority of editors in a language vote for something that are important for them, but other editors in other languages think this is not important or false
- It's sometimes difficult/long to reach an agreement or compromize, until one finds an idea to represent both views). Cultural differences are also not easy to distinguish in English is English is considered the "common" view: some English pages are very British-centered even though they attempt to describe features used worldwide with a clearly different pattern of usages (e.g. crossings)... Here for emergencies, the situation is complicated by the fact that various countries have different legal requirements and classifications. — Verdy_p (talk) 10:58, 17 April 2018 (UTC)