Proposal:Announce proposals on the community forum
| Announce proposals on the community forum | |
|---|---|
| Proposal status: | Approved (active) |
| Proposed by: | Cartographer10 |
| Applies to: | |
| Definition: | Announce proposals on the community forum. |
| Draft started: | 2022-10-27 |
| RFC start: | 2022-10-29 |
| Vote start: | 2023-01-07 |
| Vote end: | 2023-01-21 |
Proposal
The following is proposed:
- Proposals should be announced on the community forum ([1]) as well as the tagging mailing list.
- If the proposal author is not subscribed to the tagging mailing list or the forum, they should request that a subscriber cross post the announcement there for them.
Rationale
Currently, the tagging mailing list and OpenStreetMap wiki fill an important formal role in the process of discussing and voting of proposals. A new forum [2], based on Discourse, has been created which offers many new possibilities. In particular for (tagging) proposals. These proposals often affect the entire community. The current proposal process requires proposal announcements to be made on the tagging mailing list. However, as explained below the mailing list is not very accessible/attractive for many mappers. The community forum, intended to be a central community place, is therefore a better place for these announcements. The main result will be in increased engagement by the community because the barrier to participate or create proposals is reduced. Below, several reasons for this changes are listed:
- Switching to the forums for RFC and vote announcements allows every mapper to participate without the need to create a new account. They can use their existing OSM account. For the mailing list, they have to subscribe to the mailing list to actually receive the emails. This also means you have to reveal your email address which some people don't like for privacy reasons. Using alias email addresses is a solution but this should not be needed.
- Because of how the mailing list works, you get a lot of emails that are not relevant (I personally got 514 in 2 weeks on the peek during the previous proposal. 99% were irrelevant to me but I could not unsubscribe due to the ongoing proposal process). This discourages subscribing to the mailing list if you only want notifications of new proposals and votes. This also results in lots of irrelevant email from the proposal author who only wants to announce and optionally discuss the proposal on the mailing list.
- It is known that there are quite some mappers who really dislike the mailing list (see reactions on the previous vote [[3]]). Because of the requirement to announce a proposal and vote there, these people are discouraged to continue with the proposal. This excludes people from coming with good proposals from which the community can benefit.
- Using simple RSS or email notifications, people can subscribe to new proposals and votes on the new community forum. This is accomplished by following tags (see explanation below).
Conclusions previous vote
The vote on the first version of this proposal showed 2 things:
- There are quite some people who feel discouraged to create proposals because of the mailing list requirement.
- There are quite some people who still prefer the mailing list over the forum for various reasons. Most of them preferred a transition period to adjust to the community forum.
Discussing on Discourse
The Wiki's talk page is still the recommended place for discussing proposals. It is outside the scope of this proposal to change that. However, the forum does offer some nice enhancements for discussions worth mentioning:
- The forum allows for mid-thread joining. On the tagging mailing list, it is hard to join mid discussion because you don't have access to previous received emails before subscribing. Via the archive you can see previous emails, but replying to them is hard. The user interface of this archive also does not allow for easy navigation.
- The forum works really well on mobile devices. The wiki, in particular, does not offer a user friendly mobile experience for editing.
- The forum has better formatting options for mappers to support their opinions — for example: code blocks, adding images, etc.
- Using emoticon reactions, users can indicate they (dis)agree with a given comment. This prevents clutter in the discussion while still adding value to the discussion.
- Moderators can branch off topics when they become off-topic. This prevents clutter in the discussion.
Announcement templates
It is proposed to change the templates as described in the current Proposal process to the templates described below.
RFC announcement template
To announce a proposal, a new topic has to be created with the following format AND an email has to be send to the tagging mailing list. Format copied from current Proposal process except for the tag):
- Forum location: https://community.openstreetmap.org/c/general/tagging/70
- Tagging mailing list:
tagging@openstreetmap.org - Title:
[RFC] Feature Proposal - <PROPOSAL NAME> - Body:
<DESCRIPTION OF PROPOSAL> <LINK TO PROPOSAL ON WIKI> Please discuss this proposal on its Wiki Talk page. - Assign the tags (for the forum):
wiki-proposal,rfc
If you are not subscribed to the mailing list, add the following text to the topic body:
Please, cross post this announcement on the tagging mailing list on my behalf by sending an email to: tagging@openstreetmap.org
If you are not active on the forum, add the following text to the email body:
Please, cross post this announcement on the community forum on my behalf by posting a message in: https://community.openstreetmap.org/c/general/tagging/70. Also add the tags wiki-proposal and rfc
Note that it is always the responsibility of the proposal author to make sure it gets cross-posed. If it didn't happen within a few days, they should ask again.
Voting announcement template
To announce a vote, a new topic has to be created with the following format AND an email has to be send to the tagging mailing list. Format copied from current Proposal process except for the tag):
- Forum location: https://community.openstreetmap.org/c/general/tagging/70
- Tagging mailing list:
tagging@openstreetmap.org - Title:
[Voting] Feature Proposal - <PROPOSAL NAME> - Body:
Voting has started for <PROPOSAL NAME>. <LINK TO PROPOSAL ON WIKI> - Assign the tags (for the forum):
wiki-proposal,vote
If you are not subscribed to the mailing list, add the following text to the topic body:
Please, cross post this announcement on the tagging mailing list on my behalf by sending an email to: tagging@openstreetmap.org
If you are not active on the forum, add the following text to the email body:
Please, cross post this announcement on the community forum on my behalf by posting a message in: https://community.openstreetmap.org/c/general/tagging/70. Also add the tags wiki-proposal and vote
Note that it is always the responsibility of the proposal author to make sure it gets cross-posed. If it didn't happen within a few days, they should ask again.
Wiki proposal template
A small adjustment is proposed to the wiki proposal template to emphazise that forum and ML archive links should be added to the external discussion section.
The following notes will be added when creating a new proposal page.
<== External discussions ==
<! -- The RFC has to be posted to at least one of mailing list and community forum. Fill in as soon as you now the link --> * RFC: ** Mailinglist: <! -- link to the thread in https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/ --> ** Community Forum: <! -- link to thread in https://community.openstreetmap.org/c/general/tagging/70 --> <! -- Links to other mailing lists, other forums where this proposal has been discussed... -->
Example announcement post
- RFC announcement forum: https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/rfc-feature-proposal-start-moving-proposal-announcements-to-the-new-forum/4767/5
Sub community forum
A sub community [4] has been made for tagging related discussions. If the proposal related volume gets to high, a special sub community for proposals can be requested.
Subscribing to tags and communities on Discourse
Discourse allows you follow a specific tag. If all RFC and vote announcements use the tag wiki-proposal, people can follow this tag using one of the options shown in the image below. Just click a tag or navigate to the URL. Example for the tag wiki-proposal: https://community.openstreetmap.org/tag/wiki-proposal
Adding .rss to the url allows people to follow the tag via RSS. Example: https://community.openstreetmap.org/tag/wiki-proposal.rss
You can also follow an entire (sub) community. Go to the sub community like and press the bell icon again: https://community.openstreetmap.org/c/general/tagging/70
Features/Pages affected
External discussions
- Discussion on the community forum
- Proposal announcement on the tagging mailing list
- V1 of this proposal
Comments
Please comment on the discussion page.
Voting
Voting on this proposal has been closed.
It was approved with 48 votes for, 5 votes against and 0 abstentions.
- Log in to the wiki if you are not already logged in.
- Scroll down to voting and click 'Edit source'. Copy and paste the appropriate code from this table on its own line at the bottom of the text area:
| To get this output | you type | Description |
|---|---|---|
|
{{vote|yes}} --~~~~
|
Feel free to also explain why you support proposal. |
|
{{vote|no}} reason --~~~~
|
Replace reason with your reason(s) for voting no. |
|
{{vote|abstain}} comments --~~~~
|
If you don't want to vote but have comments. Replace comments with your comments. |
~~~~ automatically inserts your name and the current date.For full template documentation see Template:Vote. See also how vote outcome is processed.
I approve this proposal.--Cartographer10 (talk) 16:09, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
I oppose this proposal. as the experience with the forum fr has shown, this proposal, like the previous one, is counterproductive because it favors the fragmentation of the community, it's all the more unfortunate that when the fusion web-interface email will be functional, the very purpose of this proposal will become useless since a message posted on one of the 2 interfaces will be visible on the 2 without fragmentation (it also is revealing to see that the author left a remnant of "switch to the forum", which seems since the real purpose of this proposal) Marc marc (talk) 17:21, 7 January 2023 (UTC)- I approve this proposal. --JeroenvanderGun (talk) 17:47, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --Herrieman (talk) 18:21, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --Tordanik 18:32, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --501ghost (talk) 18:33, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --Ivanbranco (talk) 18:34, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --Tjuro (talk) 18:37, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --Tilia J (talk) 19:02, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --Bradrh (talk) 19:07, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --Multimodaal (talk) 19:26, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --Shaun das Schaf (talk) 19:32, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --Eginhard (talk) 19:32, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. I agree that it's a good idea to announce proposals widely, and both the mailing list and community forums are OSMF-hosted spaces. Therefore it makes sense to announce proposals in both places. Also, since the community forums uses the osm.org login, OSM community members don't have to jump through hoops to create an account if doing so for the first time for the purpose of a proposal. --ZeLonewolf (talk) 19:34, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --Carnildo (talk) 19:39, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. email is simple efficient and highly functional. Standard tools allow simple searching and management. It allows a local copy of discussions. Forums are clumsy and require login and other time wasting actions, and one has to remember to visit with no local copy. --Messpert (talk) 20:25, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. The new forum has proven itself over the last months. Let's move on. --Peter Elderson (talk) 20:31, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --Protoxenus (talk) 21:24, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --- Kovposch (talk) 21:38, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. I have to agree that this is a good move for the community as a whole. Restricting proposals just to the mailing list is basically just gate keeping people who don’t know how to use mailing list or don’t want to use it. So far the people who have voted against this proposal have made short sighted opinions assuming this will forever fragment the community of the mailing list users and everyone else. However the long term goal is to transition away from the mailing list. The accessibility and ease of use of the new forum outweighs the few benefits left that the mailing list has. And no, the mailing list is NOT easy to use for new time OSM users who just want to make a simple message to voice their opinion on a proposal. --Mxdanger (talk) 21:45, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. reason --Natfoot footnat (talk) 22:53, 7 January 2023 (UTC) Needs more time to incubate into a wholistic option that is not fragmenting the conversation. Example: Good Idea not a great answer to the problem. Suggest more time and resources thrown at this to implement a whole option rather than an answer to only one problem.
- I approve this proposal. --Mashin (talk) 23:39, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. Adamant1 (talk) 00:26, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --Nw520 (talk) 00:41, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --Rmikke (talk) 00:53, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --Akadouri (talk) 00:58, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --Cz ja (talk) 08:40, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --Starsep (talk) 08:09, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --Penegal (talk) 08:22, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. I'd prefer to just throw the mailing list into the bin, but I think this is a good compromise. --Discostu36 (talk) 09:36, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --Nadjita (talk) 11:21, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --Marek-M (talk) 13:16, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --Kjon (talk) 13:18, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --Famlam (talk) 21:36, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. I use mailinglists since 23 years, big fan. I was never a big fan of forums because they where cluttered, offered less additional functionality, and where pull services (not delivered to my mailbox). Now that I tried the Discourse community forum, I find it highly functional and tidy, and it integrates well with mail - I get everything delivered to my mailbox, can follow every discussion like on an ML, can also respond, but it offers many things that where missing in ML, like muting topics server sides, tags, moderation (also after posting, like splitting and renaming topics). Just love it. Adding announcements on the forum is a great step forward without breaking the workflow, and it enriches our proposal process. --Trapicki (talk) 22:02, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --Timmy_Tesseract (talk) 00:28, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --Adamfranco (talk) 15:38, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. At first, I wanted to oppose due to the wider split of the discussion. But the closer the simpler, the wider the greater. For now, the master for me remains the wiki talk. However, it is a must to pick all community channels, so the new forum. I haven't much usage experience with forums nor or even less with mailing lists. I find the latter difficult to deal with. --Chris2map (talk) 20:49, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. increased fragmentation, more complex, less accessible, at least doubling of the effort for everyone, and other issue from Talk page (esp. those marked "won't change") remain unresolved. Add to that that I envision that tagging mailing list and discourse forum will be merged eventually to single database, making all this effort misguided and wasted --mnalis (talk) 17:24, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. Rtnf (talk) 02:20, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --Whb (talk) 12:32, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --JB (talk) 18:27, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --TheBlackMan (talk) 18:31, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --Stevea (talk) 19:42, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. That's not fragmentation, that's reaching more community members. I recently had good experiences with this approach on two proposals. It is good that no one should be forced to subscribe, but I am also curious to see how the cross-posting works in reality (or how often it is necessary). But I don't see a fundamental problem with that. --Supaplex030 (talk) 20:02, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. Gonna be interesting how this turns out. --Emilius123 (talk) 05:53, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --scai (talk) 07:28, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --H@mlet (talk) 09:26, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. Lol how is this fragmentation. We're still announcing this on the mailing list. Lectrician1 (talk) 15:15, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --Popball (talk) 14:25, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. Inefficient duplication. --Dafadllyn (talk) 20:06, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --Reinhard12 (talk) 09:35, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --geow (talk) 21:23, 21 January 2023 (UTC)