User talk:Rtfm

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motorcycle_friendly=yes

Hi Rtfm,

I have moved the feature documentation pages to our user namespace (another user moved them to the Proposed namespace later) because the proposal of that tag is not accepted and most people think that this tag should not be in OSM because it is not verifiable (you participated in those discussion in March and Octoer 2017 on the Tagging mailing list). The lack of an accepted proposal and that lack of verifiability was the reason why I removed motorcycle_friendly=* from all wiki pages where it was mentioned (except its documentation page and the proposal itself).

I hereby ask you acknowldge the decision of the majority and revert your revert of my deletions. --Nakaner (talk) 17:01, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

In addition to stop your edit war, I kindly ask you to control your language, and stop calling actions of users that act in consensus with the community, after long and detailed discussions, with correctly attributed reasons, as 'vandalism', as you did here in the wiki, and here in a mailing list. --Polarbear w (talk) 21:31, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for the nice example. "consensus with the community, after long and detailed discussions" is just ridiculous looking at this [1] discussion, could you please explain where's the "consensus of the majority" ? I also asked Nakaner on the discussion page of the (original) Wiki page to explain why he thinks the deletion is necessary (and the "majority" there were max. 3 people) and got no answer. I wouldn't call this a democratic decision, And by the way, the definition for "vandalism" is "Action involving deliberate destruction of or damage to public or private property" [2]. What do you think of this Any_tags_you_like#When_to_create_a_proposal definition ? rtfm Rtfm (talk) 18:47, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
Please point me to all postings in favour of your tag. Please revert your edits as I asked you to do if you are unable to give links to postings by at least three different users. I won't revert them myself, I will ask a sysop to do the job because you would just continue an edit war with me. --Nakaner (talk) 20:07, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

Just for reference, Frederik Ramm, who is also a member of the Data Working Group, has posted a statement about the two tags in question on the tagging list. --Polarbear w (talk) 10:21, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the hint, already replied. The reason for the removal from the wiki remains still unexplained. To make the question clear : What is the motivation / purpose of these activities ? user:rtfm Rtfm (talk) 16:14, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
"still unexplained" - see https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-February/035063.html Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 16:41, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
Just ridiculous : "Who is a motorcyclist" ?. You could also ask "when is a building ruined". Obviously he didn't read the wiki description "motorcycle_friendly" was not described as a "feeling" or "rating", but with obvious motorcycle related services. user:rtfm Rtfm (talk) 11:34, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

vandalism

Please, be aware that well-meaning edit, even ones that you disagree with is not "vandalism".

Also, you may be unaware about this but [sockpuppetting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sockpuppet_(Internet)] (creating online identity used for purposes of deception) is considered as a Very Bad Thing To Do. Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 07:43, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

In other words: RTFM Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 07:44, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
I assume terrorists would also call themselves "well-meaning" in their point of view. Please explain why you think this is well. Please also consider that Defamation is also a "very bad thing". user:rtfm Rtfm (talk) 16:14, 10 February 2018 (UTC)


cosmetics:type=* etc.

You added cosmetics:type=*, cosmetics:sales=* and lots of other tags today to Tag:shop=beauty. However these tags do not appear in the database or are rarely used. I doubt that the vast majority of the people who participate in tagging discussions recommend their usage. Wiki pages in the main namespace should only mention tags which are in use or have an accepted and valid proposal (you should know that already but I mention it here again). Could you please either point me to a proposal with a valid and fair voting about these tags or remove them until 2018-02-28 20:00 UTC? --Nakaner (talk) 19:58, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

I'd like to add that you already added these tags as "Proposal" to the main page in Oct 2017, where I had removed them for the same reason as Nakaner mentions above, and referred you to the discussion page. Instead of discussing them, you re-added them to the page, which I consider an edit war. I was hoping that after recent discussion with the Data Working Group, you would stop such edit wars, and stop adding elements to the documentation that are not used, not needed, and/or not verifiable. --Polarbear w (talk) 21:37, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

discussion invitation

Can you respond at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:shop%3Dbeauty#hairdresser:for_and_other_added_by_rftm ? Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 22:37, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

Hi, missed this one, does this answer your question ? https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-May/036275.html
In other words: there were several attempts to clarify this via mailing list, but no constructive result. Instead of preventing development, try constructive input as an alternative. user:rtfm Rtfm (talk) 11:15, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

General advice

I would reconsider your username and I would strongly reconsider linking to "read the fucking manual" Wikipedia article in your discussion page. This kind of comments is justifiable only if you are expert in some topic and other are asking for free advice, without any effort on their side - and even then it is quite hostile.

In other situations it is just hostile and in addition you claim to be entirely aware about situation, effectively asking to not give you any benefit of doubt. Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 09:01, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

page blanking

Please, stop blanking https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Proposed_features/motorcycle_friendly/tag_description&action=history I am not sure why you are so determined to remind everybody about it - I suggest to move on and stop reminding everybody by erasure attempts Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 07:39, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Look who's talking... Who destroyed this page without discussion on the mailing list ? And making wrong accusations ? There were already several translations, so obviously there were people who found it useful. AFAIK there's no rule how many edits a user needs to have done before voting for a proposal. And in general, a proposal is just needed in case it affects other interests Any_tags_you_like#When_to_create_a_proposal. So what is your interest except playing sheriff ? user:rtfm Rtfm (talk) 11:23, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
"Who destroyed this page without discussion on the mailing list" - from looking at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Proposed_features/motorcycle_friendly/tag_description&action=history it seems to be done in https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Proposed_features/motorcycle_friendly/tag_description&diff=1604599&oldid=1563337 and https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Proposed_features/motorcycle_friendly/tag_description&diff=1607950&oldid=1605811 Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 14:10, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Tag:brand=Harley-Davidson

Im pretty sure the wiki isnt suppose to be a repository of brand information thats not related to OSM or mapping in anyway. There's millions of other sites for that. OSM is not a product database either (there was a thing about listing specific product inventory in stores a while back that was rightly knocked down). Anyway, the brand key is also not for the purpose of listing every possible product a place might sell. Its also stretching the definition of a tag to say brand=Harley-Davidson is a defacto tag in the first place. There are no "defacto" name tags. Therefore, im going to request the page be deleted, along with other motorcycle brand tag pages you created, and Im also reverting your edit on the brand page about motorcycle shops for good measure also). Feel free to report me to an admin if you have an issue with it. --Adamant1 (talk) 04:00, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

If you're only "pretty sure" you should possibly discuss that on the mailing list ?
The current documentation should then be enhanced to be sure :
rtfm Rtfm (talk) 04:54, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
Really? That's pretty funny advice coming from you. You must be one of those people that go off about how bureaucracy and rules are BS only when other people expect you to follow them, but then expect everyone else to do everything "proper." Don't expect other people to follow standards you have no respect for. Follow your own critism of others and don't "Insist on doing everything through channels."
Anyway, its not like if I request the pages be deleted the admin can't figure it and just not delete the page if your correct.
Btw, the bad thing about the whole "ignore all rules" thing is that if you apply and push it, it can be used against you since you set the precedence. So, someone can easily create new tags to replace yours, then spread them around and retagged your tags with them. Then what? You can't cry foul or report them not following the rules (Well, you could but it would be massively
disingenuous and backfire misserably). That's why its better to have rules. Maybe it doesn't go your way all the time, but then when it does someone can't come along and derail things as easily without there being serious consequences. That's the trade off of "channels", and the other things you have problems with. They keep this from being complete anarchy (Adamant1)
I'm glad you seem to understand my sense of humour ;-)
Regarding the "democratic tools" within OSM I think there should be a "technical and organizational update" to include the meanwhile more than 5 Million contributors (which are possibly not willing to follow all mails or to edit page code in case of proposals). The current implementation is IMHO a little "eighties", may have worked when there was just a small number of participants. Currently not very democratic as only suitable for nerds and similar people.
rtfm Rtfm (talk) 12:10, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
I mostly agree. I got a good amount of condemnation from some of those types a while back when I dared to suggest that voting on proposals was outdated and not popular anymore, but it is what it is. Know matter how much I might hate the protracted procedures and having to deal with a bunch of people to make simple changes, which I totally do, its how things are and its better then anarchy, or for that matter authoritarian rule of these things. Which I have heard suggested and would make it impossible to change anything). The reality is that the more OSM grows, the more restrictive it will be because they have a vested interest in keeping things stable. Ultimately we are either forced to work with it on their terms or hasten it through our disobedience. Its your choose which one you want to do, but I rather air on the side of the caution with the believe that it will buy some time before the crack down.
There will also always be the few elite, in crowd, users who think their opinions are supreme and have the clout to push things in the directions they want. It might be extremely annoying and stifle progress in a lot of cases, but its just something you have to deal with along with the other mishegoss. Such is life. Whatever the case, I'm still against your tagging scheme. So I'm going to do what I can to voice my opinion against it and also deal with edits to the wiki that don't stay within the rules. I'll pass on participating in the tagging mailing list to do it though ;) --Adamant1 (talk) 10:26, 22 January 2019 (UTC)