Talk:Key:craft

Floorer

Does it really make sense to distinguish craft=floorer, craft=parquet_layer, craft=carpet_layer, craft=tiler

craft=floorer	craft=parquet_layer	craft=carpet_layer	craft=tiler

IMO craft=floorer would be most generic.

/al 05:49, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

At least in Germany, a tiler (e.g. the guy who tiles your bathroom) is a completely different profession than a floorer. --Westnordost (talk) 14:44, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Sub-groups of craft=floorer can be shown by sub-tags, the same way that have been done among other, i.e., craft=carpenter --Skippern (talk) 23:58, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

Blacksmith missing?

I think a blacksmith's workplace is missing in this list. --Head 13:28, 5 October 2010 (BST)

It's a wiki, so go on and add it yourself. Mail me if you need help. MaZderMind 11:43, 12 October 2010 (BST)

Repair TV, home appliances, microwave oven, etc?

Existing craft=electrician does not really fit. Which one should be used? Is there one? Can you create one for this purpose please? I don't know how they are called in English. Thanks. --Kempelen 20:56, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

I've marked as 'craft=service_center'. Is it proper tag? --Osmisto 10:46, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Had to tag one once, the closest I could find was shop=repair_service, not widely used, but others have already used it. --Oligo 20:27, 1 April 2011 (BST)

In Germany was it 'Radio and Television Technicans' and today it is called 'information Electronics'. Most of them are a part of shop=electronics but there are some without a shop. In my mind we can use a tag like craft=information_electronics in combination with shop=electronics. But I also dosn't know how they are called in english. The crafts repair Television, Radio, monitors, and other electronic components, they build roof aerial, rooftop dish, networks in buildings and more. --Gisbert 12:42, 22 July 2013 (BST)

Repair as opposed to producing

By the definition of the key craft, I find it more focused on places to go to get new stuff produced. Naturally those places also could be able to repair broken stuff of the same kind. How about places where they only do repairs and do not produce new stuff. It should be possible to redefine craft to encompass also repairs. Another approach would be to have yet another tag for repairing, here are two possible

• craft:repair=bookbinder
• repair=bookbinder (or repair=book) (or repair=yes)

Here follows four examples of a bookshop with more and more advanced services:

shop=book

shop=book repair=bookbinder

shop=book repair=bookbinder craft=bookbinder

shop=book repair=bookbinder craft=bookbinder service=publishingoffice=publishing

/Johan Jönsson 14:51, 21 July 2012 (BST)

Clarifying what is a craft

I am not sure if the English term craft has a wider interpretation than the Norwegian translation of it håndverk. In my understanding of the word craft there is a trained profession, where traditionally a master would take on an apprentice in order for the craft to continue. Many of the usages from taginfo suggests that it is used for services that specify what a shop or works are doing (such as craft=carwash/craft=excavator_service etc,) which would fit better under service=*. There are also a lot of duplicates, such as craft=clockmaker/craft=watchmaker, and a lot of narrow specifications, where more generalization on the main craft=* tag could be accepted. For example craft=falles could be craft=handicraft+handicraft=falles (I have no clue what falles is but guess it is a form of handicraft from the picture) - A little more generalization would make it easier for people without a specific knowledge of each single craft to actually use it. See craft=carpenter for a good example of a good main craft tag with lots of sub-specializations documented. I suggest that the title page should be cleaned up, removing almost completely unused, and duplicated values, and try documenting a more specific use of tags that might have various specializations. --Skippern 18:37, 12 September 2012 (BST)

If you take a look at the original proposal you won't find services. In my opinion carwash, excavator_service and similar values don't belong to craft=* and should be removed. --Scai 07:13, 13 September 2012 (BST)

It's also worth noting that some of the values are trades, not crafts. electrician, carpet_layer and plumber are all trades, not crafts. Pnorman 20:29, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

This use of the word "trade" to mean certain craft-like professions mostly related to the making of buildings is a British peculiarity not common in other English-speaking countries. In simple "international English", a craft is something done by skilled craftsmen or similar, while a trade is almost any business.

As for the other distinctions above, most crafts blur the line between making new custom items and repairing existing items, with only industrial production being its own category. And for mapping purposes it is not important how much is trained skill and how much is just willingness to do the job for money, it can even vary by country for the same craft. And the phrase "service center" generally means a repair subsidiary (possibly outsourced) of an industrial manufacturer (such as Seiko watches), as opposed to a usually brand-neutral independent craftsman (such as the local watchmaker).Jbohmdk 01:56, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Removing falles and bonfires

Proposing to remove Tag:craft=falles and Tag:craft=bonfires from here, since these "crafts" basically don't exist, and more significantly the tags have never been used in the database. There's a question of process here, which I don't really want to get into, but I do suggest we do the same for any other tags which don't exist. See Talk:Tag:craft=falles

-- Harry Wood (talk) 14:14, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Here's my list of unproper "crafts" to remove:

• agricultural_engines - so car repair is craft too? constructing engines is industry. you can't make engine by hand.
• carpet_layer - a service
• caterer - a service
• electrician - aservice
• hvac - service
• insulation - service
• locksmith + key_cutter - synonymous
• metal_construction - same as blacksmith? or is this industry?
• optician - shop=optician already exist
• painter - a service, everybody can paint a wall
• parquet_layer - a service
• photographer = photographic_laboratory - a service
• plasterer - a service
• plumber - a service, BUT it's close to crafting
• scaffolder - scaffolding doesn't need to be crafted, you can buy it ready to use
• stand_builder - a service
• sun_protection - a service
• sweep - a service
• tiler - a service
• tinsmith - some kind of blacksmith?
• watchmaker - watch is a small clock, right?
  

Concluding: in my opinion crafting is a traditional proffesion which require hand tools (mostly) to manufacture some goods.
--damndog (talk) 12:51, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

I do not mind having this key for tradesmen or professionals that work with their hands, performing a service rather than manufacturing a product. For me, roughly speaking, this key is more or less for professional or establishments offering a service mainly done by blue-collars, while office=* would be for establishments offering a service mainly done by white-collars. If you would prefer them out of this key, what other system do you suggest?

Having said that, I agree that some values could use some cleanup. I agree that craft=locksmith and craft=key_cutter are basically the same thing; craft=agricultural_engines does not seem to fit in this key, as it seems more like a industrial ("constructing") or even office ("planning") work; craft=optician should probably be abandoned in favor of shop=optician; and I would prefer craft=photographic_laboratory on the shop=* key.

—Virgilinojuca (talk) 21:49, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

I just noticed there is already a shop=locksmith. Then it’s three tags for basically the same thing. —Virgilinojuca (talk) 18:29, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

Some of the crafts/services mentioned, like plumber and sweep, would do their trade during a house visit, and not in their own workshop, that way they rather belong under an office=* tag as a contact-point, I still havn't heard about a customer bringing his chimney and fireplace to the sweep. --Skippern (talk) 00:06, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

You are so wrong!

• repairing cars (properly) is a craft taught at least as thoroughly as carpentry and blacksmithing. It involves lots of specialist tools from special wrenches to giant hydraulic stands and hideously expensive diagnostic computers. Repairing agricultural machinery is similar but also very different, as the agricultural machines are generally larger, have deliberately sharp rotating knives and typically need to be fixed an hour ago because the rain is coming and the produce needs to be harvested before the weather arrives.
• carpet laying is a craft that happens to be done at the customer site, just like building carpentry.
• catering is more similar to the other crafts than to a shop, as it involves paying the workshop for sending out skilled waiters and sometimes cooks, as opposed to picking up take-away dinner from a shop. Tools include refrigerated and heated transport containers, plus all the portable parts of a pro kitchen.
• electrician is a skilled craft, like carpentry, it may be done at the workshop or at the customer site depending on the job at hand. The toolkit is extensive and includes various instruments, wire strippers and cutters, cutting tools for building materials, and protective clothing that can stop 5000V or more.
• HVAC construction and work is a craft and profession more common in some climates than in others. Like bricklaying it is usually done at the customer site, but advanced HVAC jobs often involve building custom units at the workshop then installing them with additional ductwork at the customer site, just like a carpenter making doors and window frames then installing them. HVAC tools include tools for cutting and bending sheet metal in situ, high precision pressure and air speed instruments, sealed systems for extracting and refilling CFC gasses with no leaks and a full electricians toolkit.
• insulation is a craft that could be simple installation work, but also the skilled calculation of proper sizing and construction of complex systems of additional drywalls, ceilings etc. to hold it. Specialist tools include machines for blowing loose mineral wool into cavities, special types of saws and knives, plus an assortment of building modification tools.
• A locksmith knows the whole craft from cutting of keys to installation of locks and assistance with opening doors with no keys, while a key cutter is just a market stall where you hand him one key and get back two after a few minutes. A real locksmith has a miniature blacksmithing workshop (without the furnace) and carries around specially sized tools for cutting precision holes in wood, metal, brick and concrete, as well as lockpicks and the key duplicating machine.
• metal_construction is a vague phrase that could refer to various crafts such as blacksmiths, iron workers etc.
• optician as a craft is confusing, and the shop tag seems dominant for this one.
• painter is definitely a craft like bricklaying. Tools include brushes, rolls, paint mixing equipment, and hazmat suits.
• parquet_layer is a rather narrow subspecies of carpentry, and only matters if there are lots of specialists that only work in that area.
• photographer is a person who actually takes photographs professionally, it is more a craft than an art, and it is definitely different from the dying craft of chemically developing negatives, though there is still some overlap amongst practitioners of the two crafts. The photographers main tools are high end Hasselblad cameras, giant flashlights etc.
• plasterer is a subspecies of bricklaying, though it is done with no bricks. Some plasterers may be painters rather than bricklayers.
• plumber is a craft, it is one of many crafts mostly done on customer sites rather than in the workshop. Tools are extensive enough they rarely go anywhere without their van with builtin mini workshop.
• scaffolder is the specialist craft of erecting and removing scaffolds that keep other craftsmen from falling, while not falling down yourself. Buying a pile of mass produced scaffold elements doesn't teach you how to safely stack it 10 stories high and 2 feet wide with no risk to health and safety. Tools include cranes, levels, pulleys etc. plus tools to anchor things into a wall.
• stand_builder is a specialist mix of furniture carpentry and advertising, though the number of such craftsmen is probably limited by low demand for professionally built stands. Tools involve those of a carpenter, glazier, electrician and painter.
• sun_protection could be confused with someone rubbing SPF 40 on your back, but I think it refers to makers of parasols, umbrellas, canopies etc. Tools include hammers, screwdrivers and heavy duty needles.
• sweep is a craft that may not have as much prestige as carpentry, but is nonetheless an established craft with masters, apprentices etc. Their tools include special types of brooms, ladders etc. as well as pollution measurement tools.
• tiler (roof) is a craft in itself different from others, while tiler (floor, walls) is just a subspecies of bricklaying.
• tinsmith, coppersmith, goldsmith etc. differ from blacksmiths in the material they specialize in using, and few if any people officially master all of these crafts. However tinsmithing and leadsmithing is traditionally combined with plumbing.
• watchmakers are trained in working with submillimeter precision mechanics, and may also be goldsmiths - They use really small screwdrivers and pliers and use a magnifying glass. clockmakers are trained in reliable precision mechanics that are orders of magnitude larger and use normal size toold. A watchmaker can fix your Rolex, a clockmaker can fix the clock beneath the Big Ben.

Jbohmdk 03:09, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Renovation works

I can't find a tag for a small company doing renovation works, for example renovating an apartment: replacing floor, insulating, plastering walls and ceiling, painting, renovating electricity and plumbing. What about craft=renovation, craft=renovation_works or craft=all_trades_work? --Oligo (talk) 13:56, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Your problem is a global problem. In this time crafts get new forms. Many small company does more than one craft.

• We can tag it in the form craft=painter, carpet_layer, mason, electrican, plumber. In this example, all professions are included, but it is not clear which is the main occupation.

MaZderMind gave me an other kind of alternativ tagging.

• craft=painter (which is the main occupation)
• craft:carpet_layer=yes
• craft:mason=yes
• craft:electrican=yes
• craft:plumber=yes

In that example i have seen a painter who makes also other crafts.

When combinations are common, but we can also use a new notation.

• craft=renovation_works

Then we should also well described in the wiki to use only one expression.

So, in germany, most shoemaker also make are keymaker.

• craft=shoemaker
• craft:keymaker=yes

or a keymaker who repair olso shoes.

• craft=keymaker
• craft:shoemaker=yes

Im trying to make a update for the preset heritage. Also I try to find pictures to discibe more crafts in the wiki. --Gisbert 08:15, 23 August 2013 (BST)

Emergency service

There are crafter who offer an emergency service (German: Notdienst). Should we tag this? How should we tag this? I noticed that many offer it 24/7. May be this tagging should include such time. For the beginning I am tagging emergency_service=24/7.--U715371 (talk) 23:04, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Incorrect Tags

Low usage keys I found on TagInfo --AndiG88 (talk) 19:27, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Wrong Spelling

• confectionary => confectionery

• plummer => plumber

• taylor => tailor

Very similar

• gardening => gardener

• welding => welder

Additional crafts in Germany I couldn't find a tag for

• exterminator (DE: Kammerjäger, Schädlingsbekämpfung)
• landscape architect (DE: Landschaftsarchitekt)
• drywaller (DE: Trockenbaumonteur, Trockenbau)

Shall I add them to the list,... or what is the process for that?

Usually I look at TagInfo and see if anything has been used and google a bit. But doesn't look like it. I also would just create a wiki page, but not list it.

• Exterminator - Seems fine to me --AndiG88 (talk) 15:20, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

• Usually pest control in UK. SK53 (talk) 11:40, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

• Landscape architect - craft=gardener exist, but I'm not sure how clear the distinction is. Also is this actually a craft? We also have office=architect and the German wiki site also says you get this with a engeering degree.

• Very distinct from gardener & landscape gardener is different again. SK53 (talk) 11:40, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

• Should make sure we get the right BE word for it. Drywaller gets the most google results, but the Wiki page says drywall mechanic. There is also still the question if we should use sub categories for craft=carpenter e.g. carpenter:drywaller=yes, although there are already many individual tags in use. (Proposal, Mailinglist...)--AndiG88 (talk) 15:33, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

• Drywall in the UK is called plasterboard, so the term is already not en-gb :-). Playing around with a few terms, it appears to be called drylining or dry lining in the UK, and the usual term for the person who does it is a fitter (a fairly generic en-gb term used across a number of trades/crafts, and mostly preferable to mechanic which is in many cases en-us). This leads to two suggestions drylining_fitter or plasterboard_fitter. A halfway house would be drywall_fitter. (Britain has dry stone walls which are constructed by wallers so there is some scope for ambiguity here). HTH SK53 (talk) 11:40, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Generic icon or a simple dot for craft?

Craft - as office as well - are unfortunately not rendered at all in OSM map. Wouln't it make sense to get a generic rendering, e.g a simple dot as for some shops, with the name of the business? Hugi99 (talk) 10:21, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Generic Icon? Mobile Business?

Many crafts-persons offer only mobile service: they come to your car to fix glass or to your home to install floors. They may list a local address, usually their home. OK? Also rendering support would help a lot. 17:11, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

dressmaker vs. tailor

The definitions of dressmaker and tailor should be clearer to distinguish. I think a dressmaker is specialised in festive female dresses, a tailor is not necessarily specialized, but if, then in anything else.

Basstoelpel (talk) 11:34, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Sharpener craft?

Is there an existing value for blade sharpeners? Here in Israel, and I'm sure in many other places, there are dedicated shops/stands for sharpening all sorts of blades, from knives to industrial blades. How can I map this? —Ynhockey (talk) 07:13, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

I would use more generic term "Cutler". Chrabroš (talk) 02:00, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

Digital fabrication

Does a digital fabrication workshop belong under craft=*? There is this abandoned proposal - Proposed features/Tag:amenity=fab lab - but this refers to nonprofit community workshops, not businesses. Likewise the related Proposed features/Key:workshop. It's not clear whether the tag's intention to cover traditional blue collar workers should include novel tech companies that make a physical product. I have searched extensively but could not find any alternative. --Lefty74 (talk) 13:40, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

What you mean by "digital fabrication workshop"? For me it sounds like an office filled with programmers Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 14:18, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

I think he means 3D printing. —Ynhockey (talk) 14:23, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Sorry, I meant to link to the specific place I'm trying to tag, called Hub Workshop. It's on the map here. Yes, it's pretty much digital printing, but on a commercial scale. It's not industrial scale, though, so it seems more like a craft. I can't see any other tags I could use. industrial=factory and man_made=works don't seem to fit. Any suggestions appreciated. --Lefty74 (talk) 14:06, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

Visual merchandising

I am trying to tag a this studio that makes window displays. My own vocabulary came up short. Google tells me "window_dresser", "visual merchandizing", "merchandise displayer" or "window trimmer". This article says, "Don't call them window dressers". Any suggestions? I'm going with craft=handicraft for now. --Lefty74 (talk) 11:44, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

Clarify definition to includes "trades" like HVAC, electrian, gardener

The current list of values, the list in the proposal and the discussions above make it clear that craft=* is not limited to "A place producing or processing customized goods". It has always included some places of business of "tradesmen" such as contractors who install heating and air conditioning equipment, house builders, craft=agricultural_engines, gardeners, and so on. I believe we should update the description of the key to match actual usage, by mentioning that this key is used for the workplaces or offices of trades such as construction and gardening, as well as craft production. --Jeisenbe (talk) 01:15, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Double-tagging a feature as "craft=" and "shop="

I just removed this line which recommended double-tagging some features as "craft=" and "shop=":

"If the place is a shop=* and craft=* at the same time with both being important both tags can be added."

This violates the principle of One feature, one OSM element and cannot be properly interpreted by database users. If a single place of business offers retail sales and craft production, it would be better to map this as two seperate nodes, similar to how one would tag a cafe inside of a bookstore. --Jeisenbe (talk) 01:29, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

for "cafe inside of a bookstore" it would be OK, but in turn, place that at the same time is actually a cafe and a bookstore can and should be tagged with both, not split. Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 16:35, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

"map this as two separate nodes" - this would violate One feature, one OSM element in cases where it is actually a single object with two functions. For example a single person behind a single desk that can either sell you a new leather bag/backpack or repair your current one. Mapping as separate objects is OK in cases where repair and sale place is actually separate and just located close to each other Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 16:35, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Sorry for reverting instead of responding to an open discussion, I failed to notice it Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 16:35, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

It becomes a problem when a mapper gets used to tagging single features as shop=glass and craft=glass, or craft=gardener + office=landscaping, and then decides that when they see a cafe that sells alcoholic drinks and coffee, it should be an amenity=bar + amenity=cafe, so they then tag it amenity=bar;cafe or amenity=bar, amenity_1=cafe or whatever their editor does in this case. --Jeisenbe (talk) 08:09, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

I agree that blindly expanding "can be tagged as craft=* and shop=* if both are applicable" to "can be tagged as amenity=* and amenity=* if both are applicable" can cause problems. Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 12:21, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Wikidata

What to do if there is more than one Wikidata counterpart implied with craft=*? There is "craft" - Wikidata:Q2207288 - but usage in OpenStreetMap also implies "skilled trade" - Wikidata:Q64506407.

Options

1. Note down all Wikidatas (with semicolon) even if that's not currently supported? (e.g. wikidata=Q2207288;Q64506407)
2. Link to the literal expression?
3. Put in the best match? (Here you could prefer "skilled trade", covering a wider range of usage than "craft".)
4. Leave it empty? (How many percent of matching is needed? Better a link with 75% matching or no link?)

I'm undecided myself and tend to 1 or 2 for now. (Perhaps "skill" would have been a more universal key than "craft".) --Chris2map (talk) 07:41, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

Article edits

If there's no reasonable objections I'd like move away from the auto generated list of values, get rid of the less used ones, and add a few sections. Without doing the first two things, the article would be to long for doing the last one IMO though. Also, the auto generated lists are generally anti-user, we shouldn't list everything anyway, and it's just weird/pointless to have a 1.1 section called "craft." --Adamant1 (talk) 05:53, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

The list is also used at Map Features - while it is long, it's similar to the list of features for Key:office or Key:shop. --Jeisenbe (talk) 21:29, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Except unlike with Key:shop in this case a good portion of them have extremely low usage. It's pretty inconsistent that your cool with deleting extremely low used tags on other articles but not this one. Either there's a standard for what is worth including in articles or there isn't. There's nothing special about this one that it should get a pass and be exhaustive, while every other article that it's came up on didn't and wasn't. --Adamant1 (talk) 22:19, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

If you want to consider doing that, the first step would be to decide which values should be removed from Map Features. Then these could be added to a supplementary list, perhaps with a heading like "Other documented values", after the list of common values. Perhaps this could be discussed on the mailing list first? --Jeisenbe (talk) 06:23, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

I'm good. Last time I checked, semi-minor article "maintenance" stuff doesn't have to be discussed on the mailing list. That's what these discussion pages and Talk Wiki are for. Otherwise, there's zero point in having them. IMO it doesn't even rise to the level of Talk Wiki though. No one answers questions there anyway and I didn't see you discussing anything you removed from articles before doing it. At least I posted about it here first. Which is more then you've done. I'm really sick of everyone chiding me for doing crap that they do themselves or telling me I should go through certain avenues before edits that they don't use themselves. Especially when it comes to something like your pretty drastic edit of food. Which I totally agree with, but I don't like the double standard. Either this a community project and we all get to make the edits we each think are best, with a little feedback on discussion pages when need be, or it's controlled by a few people who have zero consistent standards except for always getting what they want and get it just because. So, which one is it? If it's that changes should be discussed on the mailing list, then you should revert your edits to the food and many others that you removed a bunch of content from and do exactly that. Otherwise, your opinion is hallow and I'll wait for other opinions. I'm good with the double standards in the meantime though. --Adamant1 (talk) 06:44, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

BTW its completely ridiculous to say the opinions of people on the mailing list, who's only involvement in the wiki most of the time is when we have to grovel to them for permission to change something, is more important then the opinions of the people who edit and work on this wiki everyday. They aren't they taskmasters of wiki users and wiki users aren't their slaves. The suggestion of discussing things on the mailing list only seems to come up as way for a person to end a discussion and get their way by default to, because they know no one is going to discuss a minor edit on the mailing list and gives them an excuse to throw a tantrum later and revert the person. Which isn't the purpose of the mailing list and I'm sure they have better thing to do then get involved every time we want to change a word in an article or whatever other mondaine thing using the mailing list always gets invoked over. I'm fine with it being used when needed, but 99% of the time it isn't need when someone brings it up, including here. Most of the time the mailing list comes up it's usually just being used as a tactical way to control things by people who have no better argument. I'm good with that. I'll wait for the opinions of people who are actually involved in the wiki and hopefully this article. --Adamant1 (talk) 07:04, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Usage on shops

I think it should be made explicit that this tag shouldn't be used on shops. Even in cases where they make things. Especially where there is already a widely used and supported shop tag. Otherwise, it's just going to lead a bunch of tagging fragmentation and confusion. Which it seems is already happening in certain cases. For instance craft=confectionery versus shop=confectionery or craft=cheese versus shop=cheese. The way I see things, it should not matter that confectionery shop makes the confections on site or not, because it's still mainly a confectionery shop. Same goes for a cheese shop. The craft tag should only be used in cases where they are clearly separate entities (I.E. on different premises or have different contact information, opening hours etc). Although, that would be hard to verify without being on the ground. So, really, it should just be made clear that shop tags should be used instead in cases where they are clearly shops. --Adamant1 (talk) 03:13, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

What is wrong with place making some pottery products (lets say that it is individual production on a pottery wheel) and selling already produced ones as craft=pottery + shop=pottery? Or craft=distillery + shop=alcohol for open access distillery selling also alcohol at premises? Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 07:23, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

A few things, 1. IMO it goes against the standard of splitting elements into separate things when it's possible to and the whole "Take the overriding "primary" value, and go with that" thing. For instance in California there's hundreds of places tagged as shop=wine + craft=winery. When really they should be mapped separately. They aren't the same thing

2. it's borderline mapping every blade of grass and just isn't helpful in those cases. Otherwise, do you think it would be useful to add craft=bakery to every place tagged as amenity=fast_food + cuisine=sandwich that bakes their bread? I'd argue not and that it's useless detail. Every Subway in America bakes their bread, but it would be extremely worthless on the map consumers end to tag that detail, just as it would to add lit=yes to every Subway location. Or what about tagging every coffee shop with craft=coffee_roaster just because they roast coffee? It would be every Starbucks in the world.

3. I've seen plenty of instances where the shop tag is just left out and the objects are just being tagged as craft=whatever instead. When the craft aspect of the place was secondary or superficial to the fact that the object is a shop. Which is just wrong IMO.

4. Like I said it creates redundancy. For instance there's 133 uses of shop=optician + craft=optician. It's not even clear how they are different and likely the places tagged as craft=optician without the shop=optician are really just shops. Plus, shop=optician has exponentially more use and has been around longer, but are redundantly using the craft tag when there's zero reason to. --Adamant1 (talk) 08:06, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

ad 1 - I am not saying that all current uses are correct. I am saying that this use can be correct as some places actually combine this two

ad 2 - I would not map this, but it is not making such tagging wrong

ad 3 - adding shop tag is perfectly fine where applicable and I did such edits

ad 4 - I agree that specifically craft=optician seems pointless. But for example craft=pottery + shop=pottery vs shop=pottery has actually a meaningful difference Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 08:56, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

Watchmaker versus electronics repair for watch repairers

It seems like tagging is mixed between craft=watchmaker and craft=electronics_repair for places that repair watches. From what I've seen so far, most of the places tagged as craft=electronics_repair are also general jewelry stores/repair shops. I haven't really looked into specifically how craft=watchmaker is being used though. Any opinions on which is better or worse in certain circumstances would be appreciated. Probably it doesn't really matter that much, but I thought I'd ask for opinions anyway. Personally, I don't see watches as necessarily an electronics thing. Since some watches are non-battery powered. So, craft=electronics_repair seems like slightly wrong tagging for a watch repairer. --Adamant1 (talk) 06:24, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Many contemporary watches are powered by batteries and operate via electronics, e.g. the iWatch and similar devices. Old-fashioned watches which are entirely mechanical will require frequent winding by the user, and are not very popular now, except at the very high end where they are still considered fashionable (e.g. Rolex, etc). I believe both craft=watchmaker and craft=electronics_repair are options: a watchmaker is more likely to repair mechanical watches, while an e-Watch you would want to take to a digital electronics repair shop. There may be some overlap. --Jeisenbe (talk) 01:59, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Cidery

A cidery is a place that produces cider (generally a fermented alcoholic beverage) is distributed and often sold. Occasionally these places serve food, as well. I believe the amenity=pub tag is insufficiently similar for tagging such venues, because this tag fails to reflect that the cider is brewed within the venue. I believe there is need for a craft=cidery tag to describe such a place.

I also think the tag should be craft=cidery (as opposed to craft=cider) since it more closely resembles the craft=brewery, craft=distillery, and craft=winery tags.

I found no discussion on proposed tags wiki nor on this talk page so I'm adding it to discuss. Please let me know your thoughts!

--Osmedit (talk) 16:25, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

You are free to use any tags you like, but thank you for looking for advice from other mappers. It appears that "cidery" is a somewhat common English language term for a facility that brews cider, so it would be reasonable to use craft=cidery for a cidery, similar to craft=brewery or craft=winery as you mentioned. However, amenity=pub would be also reasonable to use if a cidery has a pub at the location which serves beverages and food to be consumed on the premises. This might be at the same location or perhaps is just part of the cidery. I also see that craft=cider has been used 18 times and craft=cidery 9 times, so there are already a few uses of this tag: https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/compare/craft=cider/craft=cidery --Jeisenbe (talk) 05:39, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Is there a particular reason not to just go with craft=brewery instead of creating a new craft tag since they are breweries? My guess is that they are already mainly tagged that way. It looks like there is 10,527 uses of brewery=* to define what type of brewery a place is. Which is more usage then craft=brewery currently has BTW. So maybe something like craft=brewery + brewery=cider would be good. Not to say I'm against craft=cidery though. I'm just throwing out a possible alternative. I generally like the idea of using keys to better define main tags instead of coming up with new ones when there isn't necessarily a need to. --Adamant1 (talk) 22:38, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

Just my two cents--and really it comes down to semantics--but I think cideries are distinct enough relative to breweries such that there's merit in having a main craft=* tag for them. For the same reason, I'm glad blacksmith and carpenter are distinct, rather than having the scheme be craft=carpenter and carpenter=metalworking or something of that nature. Of course, this is just my opinion. I appreciate you both providing feedback on the suggested tag. I find that these "edge cases" are one of the idiosyncrasies that makes mapping on OSM so enjoyable. --Osmedit (talk) 23:09, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

brewery=* is to define from where the beer served at a pub comes. Nothing to do (yet ?) with craft=brewery. Regards. --H@mlet (talk) 19:10, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

Just to note that a cidery is not a brewery. If anything, cideries are much closer to wineries than breweries. I think craft=cidery should be valid. While we're at it, craft=meadery could also be allowed. --PubUpdater (talk) 10:35 am (GMT), 2nd December 2022

Vehicles

Anyone know a good tag, craft or otherwise, for a place that custom builds vehicles like motorcycles, cars, vans Etc. Etc.? I don't really think the various shop=whatever tags work. Since they are more like crafters then car dealers Etc., but I can't find anything that would work instead, craft or otherwise. --Adamant1 (talk) 08:12, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

bicycle

Introducing a value 'bicycle' is necessary, as we find many places where bicycles are crafted, sometimes bikes tailored, sometime bikes for disabled people, sometimes recumbent bikes ...

craft=bicycle

Barnes38 (talk)